otherhealth.com  

Go Back   otherhealth.com > Homeopathy > Research and the Scientific Validity of Homeopathy

View Poll Results: Which is more scientific? Homeopathy or Allopathy
Homeoapthy 13 61.90%
Allopathy 3 14.29%
Can't Say 5 23.81%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2008, 06:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,218
MRC_Hans is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina View Post
To Hans:
If one looks with the actual intent of learning something,then that one will be open to homeopathy,Casedatabase cure database
1 2
over the past 200+ yrs have proven all in question already. Homeopathy speaks for itself,it works,I mean it cures.
I will look with interest on the cure database.

Who knows, maybe it will support your claim that homeopathy cures.

ETA:

Quote:
Please note that the material in the data base is not meant as a recommendation of advice regarding the treatment of particular illnesses. It is not a replacement for good medical diagnosis and treatment by a licensed physician or for care by a certified health-care practitioner. Homeopathic treatment should always be pursued under the supervision of a licensed physician and a certified homeopath.
.... It does not start too well, but, let's not be too easily discouraged .




Gina, I started my study of homeopathy about 4 years ago. Who do you think convinced me that it doesn't work?

Hans
__________________
You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2008, 09:11 PM
Gina's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,423
Gina is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Click here to read the investigation.
The pharmaceutical industry is among the largest and most powerful lobbying interests in Washington. Our investigation suggests that their considerable investment in federal lobbying has paid off............................................... ......................
PUSHING PERSCRIPTIONS
Why is conventional medicine so accepted? Read the article.
__________________
"Great ideas often recieve violent opposition from mediocre minds"...................Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 17th July 2008, 11:18 PM
Gina's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,423
Gina is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Dear Nancy
THanks for the wonderfull links! Many I have already,there are a few new ones,I will open...................
Why dont you post them also at
Homeopathy = Hpathy, Homeopathic Medicines Homeopathy Remedies, Treatments & More! discussion forum

see you there............................................. ...............
__________________
"Great ideas often recieve violent opposition from mediocre minds"...................Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 6th August 2008, 11:08 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 120
moopet is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina View Post
random copy-and-pasted list with no context

So if you combine, say, FACT 30 and FACT 32 you get what?
All these studies that prove homeopathy aren't RDBPCTs. We know that. What does this mean for FACT 30?
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 7th August 2008, 08:12 PM
Gina's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,423
Gina is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

From 24th February 2006,
moopet
Member


Quote from moopet

(another pathological clueless quote)



What's 50M of water? Water?............................................ ...................................
__________________________________________________ ________________


My Reply is:
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999
An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes.

The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25C.

Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions.

Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent.

Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water.
__________________
"Great ideas often recieve violent opposition from mediocre minds"...................Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10th August 2008, 04:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 120
moopet is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina View Post
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999
ANNALS ONLINE -- Table of Contents (June 1999, 882)
Which topic is this from?
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11th August 2008, 02:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,218
MRC_Hans is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina View Post
Quote from moopet

(another pathological clueless quote)



What's 50M of water? Water?............................................ ...................................
__________________________________________________ ________________[


My Reply is:
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999
An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes.
A rather clueless answer, if you will excuse me. Moopet asked, "what is 50M of water?", and you answer something about 3C of acids and bases. What has that to do with the question?

However, let's nevertheless look at what you write:

Quote:
The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25C.

Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions.

Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent.
The article you refer to seems to be here:
ANNALS ONLINE -- Sign In Page

Unfortunately, I cannot access it, as access is not free.

However, we can see from your quote that these solutions are "less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1", which would correspond to 3C (that is 1X10-6). We also see that they could only detect anything in 92% of the cases. Since such a reaction is either there or not, we must conclude that the mentioned dilution is close to the noise-floor for the measurement method they use (otherwise they would see 100%).

So, bases and acids react to each other, even when diluted. What else is new?


Quote:
Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water.
No it is not shown. It is shown that basic chemistry works in dilution. I could have told you that.

Hans
__________________
You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

Last edited by MRC_Hans; 11th August 2008 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Formatting
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 18th August 2008, 10:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 120
moopet is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Side effects of Allopathy
Sorry, I may have missed something, is this a new topic or is it in some way related to the OP?
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 19th August 2008, 10:45 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 129
Similibus is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moopet View Post
So if you combine, say, FACT 30 and FACT 32 you get what?
All these studies that prove homeopathy aren't RDBPCTs. We know that. What does this mean for FACT 30?
This is a very good question and an astute observation and shows at least that you are considering the arguments if only to attempt to refute them. If I have understood the implication of your question correctly here is your answer.

There are several branches of homeopathic prescribing that are permissible in classical homeopathy. One of them we refer to as 'Specifics'. This means that certain remedies have shown in clinical practice to be effective in (or specific to) one particular complaint. For example, Arnica is the first remedy we think of for bruising after injury. The specific remedy won't be effective in every case but in a sufficient number of cases to justify trying it first with the intention of looking for a more individualized prescription if it does not produce the desired result.

When we are forced to prove our medicine's efficacy through clinical trials we are required to select one remedy and prove it can be effective in the treatment of one particular condition. The opportunity to individualize is removed so we have to use specifics. Individualization is so fundamental to the homeopathic prescription that we are crippled without it. This can't be overemphasized. In fact I believe I am right in saying that Gina would argue the use of Specifics is not true homeopathy at all for exactly this reason- there is little or no individualization.

Let's take an example. Say we are doing a trial for migraine headaches.

First we have to find look at our cured cases for people with migraine headaches. Then we look at what remedies were prescribed in these cases. We find in 100 cases we used 20 different remedies in total but 40% of them responded to the remedy Natrum Muriaticum. So we select that remedy for the trial.

Then we do the trial. Don't forget only Nat. Mur. is used for every patient in the trial. Let's say the results show that 35% of subjects reported a significant improvement in symptoms after taking the remedy. The trial concludes that (crippled) homeopathy has an effect above that of placebo. Great! I'm happy!!!

But this is less than half the story. What would happen if a skilled homeopath were then allowed to individualize the 65% of cases that reported no improvement and prescribe any remedy he or she felt was indicated? I would expect that around 80% of these remaining cases would report a significant improvement.

Facts 30 and 32 do appear to contradict each other. But in FACT 30 Gina is explaining that we are forced to restrict ourselves to the use of Specifics in double blind trials and in Fact 32 he emphasizes that these are not a true measure of homeopathy's effectiveness because they make no allowances for the individualization that is so crucial for a successful homeopathic prescription.

Last edited by Similibus; 20th August 2008 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Numerical error
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Allopathy and Homeopathy often has to work together ! Wim Pets and Animals 2 15th November 2010 07:24 PM
Homeopathy Vs Allopathy j tikari Homeopathy List Discussion 29 31st October 2009 03:09 PM
Allopathy Vs Homeopathy Part II Dr. MAS Homeopathy Discussion 11 24th October 2008 03:07 PM
allopathy and homeopathy the contrasting chart g.tyler Homeopathy List Discussion 0 3rd September 2005 04:17 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:53 PM.



The information contained on OtherHealth.com arises by way of discussion between contributors and should not be treated as a substitute for the advice provided by your own personal physician or other health care professional. None of the contributions on this site are an endorsement by the site owners of any particular product, or a recommendation as to how to treat any particular disease or health-related condition. If you suspect you have a disease or health-related condition of any kind, you should contact your own health care professional immediately. Please read the BB Rules for further details.
Please consult personally with your own health care professional before starting any diet, exercise, supplementation or medication program.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2005-2012 otherhealth.com
For books in the UK visit our sister site Dealpond.com

SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2