Hello! I can perhaps explain the MO of Kayveeh, since we go back a really long time. I must add that he has actually, on another forum, asked me to come here and sort things out, although I'm afraid he may not like the way I do that.

Kayveeh is an ardent supporter of homeopathy, cell salts, and a number of other alternative methods. Unfortunately, he understands little of any of them. Kayveeh thinks his mission is to open the eyes of people and lead them to great discoveries. He does this by googling various buzzwords, by which he finds all kinds of articles, some scientific, some not. It matters little because he usually understands less than half the words in them. Nevertheless he presents them as supportive to whatever bright idea he is currently entertaining and requests others to analyze them and comment on them. In fact, Kayveeh is very keen on making others do his homework for him, perhaps through the realization that he cannot do it himself.

His current pet theory is that the inevitable impurities incident on a homeopathic remedy, espcially in the form of microbiological contaminations are what somehow conveys the long sought, but elusive memory of water. The fact that such a theory defies logic, all we know about micro-organisms, and that it does not explain how other media than water function, does not deter him in the least.

To make that clear and without doubt, I am what you supposedly consider the enemy: I'm a skeptic.

If you take a look at hpathy (am I the "Han" you are referring to? Then my name is Hans, my screen name is MRC_Hans), you will find that I have analyzed the KP report.


There is a slight misunderstanding here. To a degree, it is known how Aspirin works. It works chemically by interfering with processes in the body. Just exactly which processes and how is still not clear. You cannot compare this with homeopathy, where there is no suggestion of any way it could interact with the body.

It is more like the inate rambings of a confused person .

Quite right, but if you chose to continue debating with Kayveeh, you will find that he is not going to let himself be disturbed by little things like logic and facts.


The thermoluminiscence study suffers from lack of proper controls, and it works on frozen water. Obviously, that means that whatever results may be obtained, they pertain to solid state physics, not to liquids. You can store lots of things in solids. Liquids, however......

Cheers Hans

PS: Kayveeh, I participated as you asked me to. Sorry if it didn't pan out the way you expected, but when you ask the Devil for assistance, you risk getting what you ask for and not what you wish for .

Hans

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<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

Mr hans,

Nothing to feel sorry, if you think, you have done thr right as per my request.

Perhaps, you understand science of homeopathy, therefore is able to evaluate other's evaluations. Pls do tell such science of homeopathic remedies. If you can't, then all your comments can be based on lame foot.

Thanks you have cleared;

"Kayveeh is an ardent supporter of homeopathy, cell salts, and a number of other alternative methods"

My above support can be much observation and experianced based in same or similar system

Though live bacterias(not all) can't exist at low temperature but their dead bodies and derivatives can.

Pls tell here, when repeated similar variables are measured by kirlon photography with three most appropriate comparisns, how these can't be valid?

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Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

I'm not sorry for myself, but I am sorry for you.

Maybe so. Where does that put YOU, Kayveeh? You don't understand the science of anything, so that puts you on two lame feet.

Of course they can exist at low temperatures. Most bacteria survive deep freeze quite well. That's not the point at all.

Read my reviw of that report at hpathy. However, they are not valid because they selected the parameters that showed what they wanted them to show.

It is like this: Suppose you want to prove that most people with red hair need glasses. So, you take a large group of people, then carefully select those who wear glasses. Among thme you select those with red hair. Now you can show that people with red hair have a higher incidence of wearing glasses than the general population.

And you will be wrong.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

But you mentioned in PS aling with declaring/claiming yourself as DEvil.



But I am not a skeptic in any system. Some-truth, all can hold. So I am much loaded.



If you want to add to your knowledge, money, belief and to science and humanity(may not to this community), check, Microbiology and Biotechnolgy involved in homeopathic remedies, unbiased. It is common/logical understanding. However if you just want to remain fixed/ precieved, you can continue similarily.



True, but how it is relavent to this study?

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Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

The term enemy was perhaps unfortunate but it is to differentiate between those on the inside and those on the outside. As I had said it is fine to debate and discuss but at least make it clear where you are coming from.

I think so but I can't be certain. Kayveeh point us to your post over there so that must have been you.


On the one hand you say we know and then on the other hand we don't. So basically we don't.

Yes there is. The remedy acts on the vital force. What you are perhaps looking for is some physiological effects or some biochemic explanation.

Homoeopathy just as in traditional chinese medicine uses a metaphysical model for its diagnosis and treatment strategy. How it works at the physical level is less important. What is important is that it works.

That's a good one....I had a good time giggling.

I'm not too sure what you meant by controls. They had the spectrum of pure water(D20) and that was compared with NaCl, Licl after dilution.

I think what this experiment also demonstrated, not completely though, is that we could place a homoeopathic remedy in the freezer and it will still retain its characteristics.

The sceptics were looking for artifacts of the remedy in ultra-diluted homoeopathic remedy and this experiment demonstrated quite clearly that these artifacts do exists.

Alike Great Dr.Schuessler.


I can't tell much about Mr Hans's qualities/backbiting habit because, here he is an invited guest by me to explain technicalities in technical language which you can better understand. He has big tongue for bitter medicines but nothing for sweat pills.

He said;

"Hans:PS: Kayveeh, I participated as you asked me to. Sorry if it didn't pan out the way you expected, but when you ask the Devil for assistance, you risk getting what you ask for and not what you wish for .?
"

His last reply about KP to me;

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

Fortunately he doesn't have sweet tongue. Those who do usually drip saccarine-like sweet drivel.

Hans is cute, I think I don't think he's mean.

Kayveeh, now you know why he's called the Devil's advocate

KV: Pls tell here, when repeated similar variables are measured by kirlon photography with three most appropriate comparisns, how these can't be valid?

Hans: Read my reviw of that report at hpathy. However, they are not valid because they selected the parameters that showed what they wanted them to show.

It is like this: Suppose you want to prove that most people with red hair need glasses. So, you take a large group of people, then carefully select those who wear glasses. Among thme you select those with red hair. Now you can show that people with red hair have a higher incidence of wearing glasses than the general population.

And you will be wrong.

Hans
[/quote]

This devil's advocate is truly up to his devilish ways. To the unsuspecting reader he seem to make sense but actually he is not. If he knew the scientific method and the process of sampling and yet made the statement above then he's not been honest.

Firstly the example given is what is called a false analogy. It has no bearing on the study itself. His example has to do with random sampling and not selective sampling as he suggested. The study using kirlian photography has NO NEED FOR SAMPLING. It is not a statistical study to elucidate phenomenon. It is an empirical study to see if artifacts are found in the ultra-diluted homoeopathic remedies.

They first searched for it using spectral analysis. The first study found positive result. A subsequent study could not repeat it. The study using corona discharge photography was to study if an electromagnetic field could react with the homoeopathic remedy in a way that demonstrated a unique signature that is not present in the original water. They found it and in the study they kept repeating it. So the phenomenon exists and the experiment is repeatable. And therefore highly valid. I can't say it is completely valid because we never know what we have overlooked in science but as it stands the study is very good and very convincing.

But Hans contention is way off the mark.

Still, angels and devils, Good and bad, sweat and bitter, positive and negatives, energetic and materalistic,believer and skeptics, energetic and chemical healing agents etc. should two opposing or compensating mechanisms/forces meant to balace each other or result homeostsis or towards god. I therefore respect all valid knowledes/understandings. Due to this reson you may feel some ODDs in me.


Therefore I invited him here, to interact with you direcly. Previously I indicated fight, exchanges & competitions can be in between of "similars".."like cure likes".

Should be valid. But variations in remedies can be due to many factors, enery transfer and contaminations--biological, non-biological and biotecnical.

Btw, where is Dr Lew?

Regards.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only one using the screen-name MRC_Hans anywhere.

I think you will need to learn to handle the concept of different depths of knowledge. Because if you require that we must know all to know something, then we know practically nothing.

You are just adding a new level of unknowns. We also don't know anything about the vital force.

Oh, I agree. Unfortunately, that also seems hard to prove.

Ask yourself this: Since thermoluminiscence is a very sensitive method, which has the potential of detecting very minute amounts of material, of you take two different batches of water and analyze them, will you reach identical results?

The problem, as far as I remember, was that they did not ensure that their reference sample provided a true baseline for the experiments.

No. The changes were madein the solid (frozen ) state, so all it could show was that water might retain some memory while in the solid state. It was the signal from the pattern dissolving when the water went to the liquid phase. I fact, the experiment specifically demonstrates that the pattern is NOT retained in the liquid phase.

No, not "quite clearly". The number of samples was very small, and there were other problems with the protocol. This experiment at best gives some hint at something that needs further research.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

I know the method, and I could lecture you for some time about the art of sampling. Such things are part of my profession. However, it would not be relevant to the KP study.

The example is hightly simplified and somewhat exaggarated. You see, I was aiming at something Kayveeh might actually understand. Not entirely surprisingly, I failed. (And if you think I'm a bit hard on poor old KV, know that I have patiently tried to explain things to him for several years. Even a saint looses patience at some point)

Then you also did not understand my example.

You should tell this to the people who conducted the test, because they claim statistical results.

You seem to ovelook the problem that since nobody knows how KP is expected to react to things, they decided to record and analyze an arbitrary group of parameters, 14 in all.

After the experiment, they studied the reactions and selected 4 parameters that seemed to follow a pattern, then applied statistical analysis to confirm that pattern. The problem with this is that they thereby fail to show that the whole set of parameters is not random.

You can take any collection of random data, select some patterns, then show statistically that those patterns exist. You have, however, not shown anything about the data set as such, you have only demonstrated your ability to find patterns.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>