Hello,

I tried to give my confusions and thoughts on many issues. If you will go on reading and understanding, you can understand these. Basically, I understand and use tissue remedies, I also try to understand homeopathy but many points make me confuesd, as I tried to indicate in this topic for members comments. But unfortunetely there are no replies. So I am just posting, whatever came and comes to my mind.

Best wishes.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

Hetrogenousity Vs. Homogenousity:- As I thought, there can be a variation in naturality to us by the application of these two type of substances. In material dose, hetrogenous substances may cause adverse reactions--digestive disorders, antigenic/allergenic activities, inflammatory and infectious activites, hypersenstivities--allergies, autoimmunities etc. In both types, if dose is odd (in chemical(concentrated medicines) and in energy(potentised)), it can also be thought as unnatural for body because our body had never sensed these previously and consistently. Though, such ODD effectes can also be thought as stimulating differentiating activities (alike shocking effect, inflammation etc.), which can either be beneficial or harming. In homogenous, food/nutritional type substances, there can be one ODD, whereas two ODDs in case of hetrogenous type substances in potencies. As such, we may need to evaluate this aspect seriously.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

I think science had progressed and there's a better understanding of the energetic effects of the higher potencies. Unfortunately a lot of these studies seldom get quoted or even printed in the popular media. Here's one study and the abstract is given below :




ABSTRACT:

Although more than 200 years have elapsed since the beginning of homeopathy and in spite of numerous confirmatory scientific experiments, the so-called memory of water is still a highly disputable and controversial theme in scientific circles. To make a contribution to solving this riddle, our research group tried to examine memory properties of water by the method of differential corona discharge Kirlian electrophotography of water-drop pairs. The method is based on a modified form of Kirlian photography with a subsequent thorough computer picture analysis. The potassium iodide (KI) mother solution (0.1M) was diluted in the standard way (without potentisation) or with potentisation (succussion by hand - by striking the vial 60 times against a large book as used traditionally) to 10-3M, 10-6M, 10-10M, 10-16M, 10-17M and 10-24M KI solutions. In the electrophotography method a drop of KI solution was compared with a drop of control water. To get a dependable system of results we comparedhomeopathic dilutions with ordinary distilled water, sham-potentised distilled water and non-potentised (standard) solutions. The results were analyzed by the Chi-square Goodness-of-fit test and the Sign test. They showed repeatable and statistically significant effects of concentration of KI dilutions as well as potentisation on the corona discharge process (from p < 0.05 to p < 0.001). This indicates that there is some physical basis of molecular (ionic) information imprinted into water.

Hello chionggou,

Thanks. The following is the link for this full study;

http://lkm.fri.uni-lj.si/xaigor/slo/...strumental.htm

Though following site can be biased, still you can read skeptics view about Kirlon Photography on following link;

http://www.quackwatch.com/01Quackery...s/kirlian.html

Best wishes.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

Hi Kayveeh,

I think that chap was railing against aura rather than kirlian photography. Kirlian photography is very technical and it does produce a charateristic signature given different substances. It is basically an interaction between the corona discharge field generated and the electromagnetic field of the subject to be photograph. So the result is scientifically valid.

There's another study that use the thermoluminescence property to determine if microdiluted LiCl and NaCl do show the characteristic spectrum of LiCl and NaCl at material dosage. An excerpt is given below and the source reference is given at the end.

----------- Excerpt from http://www.sciy.org/blog/_archives/2...2/2826674.html -----

Now, physicist Louis Rey in Lausanne, Switzerland, has published a paper in the mainstream journal, Physica A, describing experiments that suggest water does have a memory of molecules that have been diluted away, as can be demonstrated by a relatively new physical technique that measures thermoluminescence.
In this technique, the material is ‘activated’ by irradiation at low temperature, with UV, X-rays, electron beams, or other high-energy sub-atomic particles. This causes electrons to come loose from the atoms and molecules, creating ‘electron-hole pairs’ that become separated and trapped at different energy levels.
Then, when the irradiated material is warmed up, it releases the absorbed energy and the trapped electrons and holes come together and recombine. This causes the release of a characteristic glow of light, peaking at different temperatures depending on the magnitude of the separation between electron and hole.
As a general rule, the phenomenon is observed in crystals with an ordered arrangement of atoms and molecules, but it is also seen in disordered materials such as glasses. In this mechanism, imperfections in the atomic/molecular lattice are considered to be the sites at which luminescence appears.
Rey decided to use the technique to investigate water, starting with heavy water or deuterium oxide that’s been frozen into ice at a temperature of 77K. The absolute temperature scale (degree K, after Lord Kelvin) is used in science. (The zero degree K is equivalent to –273 C, and deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen which is twice as heavy as hydrogen).
As the ice warms up, a first peak of luminescence appears near 120K, and a second peak near 166 K. Heavy water gives a much stronger signal than water. In both cases, samples that were not irradiated gave no signals at all.
For both water and heavy water, the relative intensity of the thermoluminescence depends on the irradiation dose. There has been a suggestion that peak 2 comes from the hydrogen-bonded network within ice, whereas peak 1 comes from the individual molecules. This was confirmed by looking at a totally different material that is known to present strong hydrogen bonds, which showed a similar glow in the peak 2 region, but nothing in peak 1.
Rey then investigated what would happen when he dissolved some chemicals in the water and diluted it in steps of one hundred fold with vigorous stirring (as in the preparation of homeopathic remedies), until he reached a concentration of 10 to the power -30 g per centilitre, and compare that to the control that has not had any chemical dissolved in it and diluted in the same way.
The samples were frozen and activated with irradiation as usual.
Much to his surprise, when lithium chloride, LiCl, a chemical that would be expected to break hydrogen bonds between water molecules was added, and then diluted away, the thermoluminescent glow became reduced, but the reduction of peak 2 was greater relative to peak 1. Sodium chloride, NaCl, had the same effect albeit to a lesser degree.
It appears, therefore, that substances like LiCl and NaCl can modify the hydrogen-bonded network of water, and that this modification remains even when the molecules have been diluted away.
The fact that this ‘memory’ remains, in spite of, or because of vigorous stirring or shaking at successive dilutions, indicates that the ‘memory’ is by no means static, but depends on a dynamic process, perhaps a collective quantum excitation of water molecules that has a high degree of stability.
Source

Rey L. Thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride. Physica A 2003, 323, 67-74.

Thanks for providing this study. Though science people have rejected all previous studies on this or that ground, I am looking for comments from science people on this study as this not recent study. As I am not much tecnical, though it looks quite interesting, I may be able to evaluate individually, so need remarks and reactions from science people. In my practical observations and experiances, effects and outcome look to be quite real.

Previously, I think, aura and aura's pictures by kirlon photography were emphasised. We can somewhat define electromagnetic presence, raditions and discharges from our body should be our aura(we can name these anyway). Anyhow, in whatever manner or by whatsoever measuring instrument, if variations in potentised remedy and water can be shown consistently, that should be a valid healing substance. If we can get consistent DBPC studies about effects in studies or variations in measurements that it should be acceptable to science/skeptic unbiased people. Still inconsistency seems to exist.

I feel, there is an another reason to the presence of homeopathic effects in potencies. Avogadro’s Law may not be applicable for considering homeopathic information. Probably, science/skeptics just made their mouth strong on this law just by[i/"substaractions ignoring biological additions in remedies"[/i]. Such biological basis can be a reson to storing the "same or similar" informations of raw remedy substance in potencies which is expressed by variations on such measuring instruments and by beings, though inconsistently being much diluted and gentle/delicate stimulis.

Best wishes.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

What is important in establishing the presence of a phenomenon is not "currency" but "validity". Newton's law remain valid in gross mechanical system and it was discovered centuries ago.

The corona discharge photography was singly blinded because there's no need for double blindedness - machine has no perception. And more interestingly was that it was repeatable.

The confirmation from the thermoluminescence study was even more amazing and that study is repeatable and had not been disputed, at least none that I know of.

DBPC ? Double-blind, Randomised control ?

There's no necessity for double-blind studies when you are dealing with a physical phenomenon. Your insistence in throwing doubt and misinformation is a bit strange for me. Of course you claim not to be too technical.

I think there's no necessity to demonstrate specific signature identifying the remedy. The instrumentations is not sensitive for it. But in this case it answers a long standing accusation that homoeopathic remedy contain nothing more than just water. All the experiment has to show is that there's artifact , in fact much stronger, than even the initial substance.

I don't quite understand your statement that "still inconsistency exists" ? What inconsistency ? Either you did not understand the study or the objective or you are just casting doubt for your own reason. Sceptical doubt is good for science but uninformed disinformation makes a great disservice to humanity, even when you seem to be argueing for homoeopathy.

There isn't one law for homoeopathy and another law for the rest of humanity. The law holds. But the artifacts seen and determined by these experiments are not dependent on the initial molecules. It seems the spectral emission came from the hydroxyl molecule. This means alchol(ethanol) with the OH radical at the end will also be able to "store" this information.

There's no biological basis for this phenomenon. It is purely a physical phenomenon. However this phenomenon do assert a physiological effect in the human , animals and even plants.

chiongguo,

I give below views of important member from science/skeptic community:-

You may discuss on above link with technical person. Btw, whether repetead measurements are done and were those consistent?

You base imprint of homeopathic informations by structural changes in inter/intra molecular changes. How such changes can express remedial effects similar to raw remedy substance?

Otherway, have we counted changes, if happened, due to microbial population already present in used water or entered from surrounding atmosphere at every step of 1:99 solutions? Microbes are highly adaptive to new environment and quick growing. So these can be modified as per the mixture of solution, specific to specific substance. Modified by adaption in new environment, if dead by mechanical pressure by shaking OR by starvation, then their body's constituent will be mixed in soloution resulting effects due to these. Addition of new water at every step can serve as a purpose of some additional food. Multiplication of microbes can add many substances and molecules to the solution. Probably, as microbes are modified or adapted to new environment, they or their dead body's substances, may act as healing substance or nosode resulting same or similar healing effects.

As such, we may need to count biological basis in remedies. So much addtions by such biological population can show much molecular presence. So I said Av. law not applicable as that only count molecular presence of raw remedy substance/s not the biological presence.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

So Kayveeh do you argue for homoeopathy or the opposing camp ? You are a senior member of this group and I've not read much of your post, or for that matter not many of others as well, but I could hazard a guess that your pattern is the same as the thread we are having now. You would first present some homoeopathic principles or even studies and then cast some doubt upon it and then cite opposing views to the studies. Very few people have the capacity to understand the study and because of that when you stir up the shit pot a bit you could confuse a lot of people. So are you trying to help or are your intentions really to harm ?

The enemy within is worst than the enemy without for he/she moves among us and we trusted him/her.

So let me address the scienfitic/skeptic view. They are presumably not your view so I wouldn't be debating with you but Han at Hpathy. And btw. why do you put scientific next to skeptic ? Are you trying to suggest that scientific view is not valid ? or are you trying to give credibility to the sceptic by lumping them with the "scientific" view ?

I'll not discuss with the person at Hpathy. Han is all over the homoeopathic groups and your posting is here in this group. So I'll try to clean up the shit you had left lying around (I know I'm aggressive 8-)))). Truly I hate dishonesty and betrayal.

If you had read the study you would have known that the measurements were repeated and average diameter of the corona discharge photographs were taken. The result was repeatable (and was repeated) and the result was consistent. Otherwise you wouldn't call it repeatable, would you ?

That's not the purpose of the study. Didn't you read the title and the abstract ? The study was to address the question that homoeopathic dilutions do not have anything in it other than water. Yet the energy signature or artifacts of the original substances were detected eventhough there isn't a single molecule of the original substance.

Whether it is structural changes, molecular changes, energetic changes is NOT IMPORTANT in this study. The study is to show, let me repeat, that the homoeopathic remedies have measurable artifacts of the original substance.

Modern medicine doesn't even know how aspirin work (the paper I read was in 2004) and yet it had been used for decades. How the imprinting was done or how it had a therapeutic effect is less important than the fact that the homoeopathic remedies contant artifacts of the original substances and do assert a physiological effects on living things.

[quote]
- Microbial cause of artifacts - deleted -too long-lah. It is nothing more than a lot of innane rambling to confuse the reader.
[/quote

If microbes were the cause of the artifacts and the cause of the remedial effects on the body as you want to suggest (Kayveeh - very clever sleigh of hand) then don't you think that the alcohol used in the homoeopathic remedy would have destroyed the microbes ?

And if microbes was the cause of the remedial effects then how do you explain that different remedies heal different symptoms ? Oh I see...different microbes and just the right kind of microbes could pop in at the right time.

Kayveeh, you are a very clever man. When cleverness is used for deceptive purposes, it makes you cunning. So did you use your cleverness for deceptive purposes here ?

You know yourself best.


What happened to the thermoluminescence study ? No opposing view to offer our friends here ? That study brought the sample to a very low temperature where microbial activities were impossible.

Let's see how you stir the shit pot next. The more you do it the more others will be able to see your intention.

Sorry to learn for what you have learned from my posts. As indicated many times, my preception is "dynamic effects are valid in my observations andexperiances but unclear" or I base "homeopathy/tissue remedies works but unclear". This you can imprint first in your brain. Skeptics don't want opposing dynamic views about their perception, believers also don't want such views about their perception--both can be wrong unless their perception are "absolute(free from imperfection) and final". This resist or restrict adding furthur knowledge. One should be unbiasedto all aspects unless they become truth. I thing you have also indicated, somewhat one can be skeptic....people who don't want dynamic but opposing issues may not be justified in truth but his biases are just besed on vested/selfish interests. Both ruling party and oppostion can form a good government, not either.

I just wanted to reassure in view of skeptic's aurgument. There I asked, if consistent results are there then?



First we can draw a line between measurable differenciating effects--may or may not be relevant to raw remedy substance second measurable consistent effects due to presence of raw remedy substance. Furthur, water, alcohol and lactose are used as carriers of dynamic effects, so carrier effect on all these three should justify on measurement similarily. Though science and skeptic community in homeopathy may treat Kirlon photograpy as unscientific testing instrument, but I accept repeated outcomes with aspects as I mentioned.

True. If we look at an medical information site provided by reputed agencies, we can fing remarks against many/most informations : science couldn't yet be known", could yet be understood, reasoning coudn't yet be understood etc. etc. How they are justified without complete and absolute knowlege, esp. in such senstive issues with many possible adversities, is a thought.

Dead bodies can also add. Specific mixuture can also modify microbes specifically as microbes are very much and quickly adaptive to new environment. Modified protiens from their dead bodies can also act alike specific healing effect somewhat healing protien or nosodes. In like cure likes, their can be two type of likes but related. Probably but mostly, this may be going to become science or mystry or relavant molecular presence in homeopathic remedies. Just llok;

"Contamination of Distilled Water, HCl, and NH4OH with Amino Acids, Proteins, and Bacteria
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/6/687 "

Best luck for dynamic/different understanding. This can add as per my signatures. Read all my posts here or there, it will keep you informed about me.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.