I'm assuming that those scientists who insist that any effect that homoeopathy has been shown to initiate is placebo, would be hard-pressed to maintain that opinion if plants were to show an effect.

So I was very interested to see that an independent mainstream agricultural laboratory - HortResearch of New Zealand - dealt with the worries of pip and stone fruit growers whose crops were destroyed by a late frost as orchards were in blossom. They tested several treatments against frost and the winner was a homoeopathic preparation.

Later tests demonstrated that the temperature inside the plants which were treated were 2 degrees centigrade higher than those sprayed with water.

Another drip of evidence ......

do you have a link to the article?

__________________
"The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.

http://www.bdmax.co.nz/template.php?...max_report.htm

and

bottom of page - http://www.bdmax.co.nz/template.php?...7573b7e02eb616

That is a commercial site. They are promoting a product they sell.

Now for the results:

1) Where does it say that the ThermoMax is a homeopathic product? And if it is, what is the potency?

2) There doesn't seem to be any blinding in the experiment.

3) The report doesn't seem to have been published anywhere except on this commercial website.

General remark: Changing the temperature of a plant relative to the ambient tempearture can only happen if the applied agent has some physical property. This could be an insulating property, a peroperty that changed the heat/light radiation properties of the surface, or the agent could somehow release energy. All these are within the laws of thermodynamics. Anything outside the laws of thermodynamics is magic.

On placebo and plants: Placebo in plants, animals, infants and other non-communicating subjects is certainly possible. I once user the term "Placebo by proxy": Somebody has to report on how the "patient" progresses. Obviously, this second-hand reporting is at least as susceptible to expectation bias as the first-hand reporting of the patient.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

Can't say about plants, but remedies can make a person feeling hot or cold either by variations in blood flow or otherwise. Thermal modalities are related to it.

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

Plants don't have much blood flow. However, you do have a point: I suppose some substances could increase the flow of sap from the roots, and this might change the tempearture slightly, since the ground will usually be warmer that the air in winter. Not sure it could give any appreciable difference, though. And the fluid would somehow have to be accumulated in the plant, because if it were to evaporate, it would actually cool the plant.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

That's right they are. When I came across this I got in touch with the laboratory to see if they were aware of the paradigm-crunching nature of the report to which they put their name. After a lot of persistance they refused to say anything except they stand by their report. This was in part a professional reply due to the fact that the report was commissioned by a third party. The lab, HortResearch of New Zealand, are the agricultural laboratory that the government uses for their own tests.

The story is that there was a late and hard frost at the end of the 90's at Hawkes Bay which ruined the orchard crops for that whole season. The pip and stone fruit growers association got together to see if there was anythinhg that could be done.

One orchard which used the 'Warmth Spray', now sold as 'ThermoMax', had survived the frost whilst all the orchards in the area lost theirs. So without contacting the supplier they sent their samples to the lab to be tested. The results in the report were delayed significantly because of the surprise nature of the results.

It says it all over the site as far as I can see. The potency is not in the public domain. It is made from valeriana and taraxecum and chamomila as prepared in the biodynamic way. If you would like to pursue your interest independently then have a look at the research site at the ThermoMax page - http://considera.org/materiamedicagr...emtype=2&rem=1

Perhaps I should qualify this; it is not a classical homoeopathic product using single products and the similia principle, but it is potentised in the same way as the remedies used in homoeopathy. There is work using classical homoeopathic principles including a book which is recently published and all this can be found from the site above.

No, but it was against controls. It was not done to demonstrate absolute scientific proof but to give guidance to a commercially based association. I get confidence from that unsolicited testimony and from the fact that it and other preparations from the same team are now used in the hard nosed business world of Agribusiness - both inside and outside of organic circles. Much of this can be found in the grower testimonials on the same site.

That is interesting. Perhaps because it is a private report done by the growers association and not by a researcher. I would have thought that it would arouse a little more interest.

That would seem to be an article of faith on your behalf given the report before you. In the main I would agree but I would phrase it differently; "we understand that changing the temperature of a plant .....anything which seems to be outside the laws of thermodynamics would really need to be investigated thoroughly to find the trick or to clarify the law". That would seem more scientific. I think the challenge really depends on the little phrase so often forgotten in the laws - "in a closed system...". The definition of a closed system does not recognise the immaterial nature of the homoeopathic potency so you can either dismiss both as rubbish or think of the one as a clue to the other. I am currently investigating the latter option.

Yes this information is not water-tight as you have highlighted above. However, I personally have found it a spur to investigate the modus operandi of the laboratory, the innovators who make these preparations, and to consider what the new model might be if indeed plants respond to immaterial doses in a predictable manner.

What about decrease in the flow of sap, which may be warmer due to ground usually be warmer than the air in winter?

__________________
Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..S.Kh.

Mmmm, yes, you could be on to something there. Not due to the warmth of the ground, but something that reduced the amount of evaporation from the surface of the plants would, all else alike, leave them less cold.

Mark:

I'm aware of my dismissive attitude, and yes, you can say it is unscientific. Homeopathy and I have a long history, and I've been too far out in the corners of the subject to be impressed by a disputable result from something somebody chose to label homeopathic.

There are SO many things out there that bear the designation "homeopathic", but is really a mixture of various stuff, with a bit of potentized remedy (often in potencies as low as 2X) thrown in to capitalize on the lenient regulations for homeoapthy.

In other words, even if ThermoMax does indeed work as advertized, I'd not let the corks pop till I knew what else is in there.

As for the laws of thermodynamics, they don't just apply to closed system (that's only the part about entropy), and quite frankly, they are so well established that I'd be willing to bet on them against even the apparantly best laid out experiment. But, that's just me.

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

Hi Hans

I agree - it must be treated with caution. There is a huge width between gullibility and closed-mindedness and I have no intention to judge how you navigate through that gap.

My personal choice has been as mentioned - following it up in detail. But there is the possibility that I leave open that I have been duped along the way; certainly I have friends who are sure that must be the case.

But I can only report that my experience is that it does what it says on the tin and that it contains alcohol, water and the ingredients mentioned in the strengths compatible with medium potencies (up to 30x).

I am happy with the laws of thermodynamics too. I am left with the dilemma of searching for a mechanism within the existing paradigm as you and Kayveeh are doing, or looking for the limitations of the paradigm. If I get anywhere with resolving this I'll try to remember to be in touch.