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Old 30th January 2006, 06:19 PM
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Thumbs up Molecules are found in homeopathic potencies > See Inside ;)

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Homeopathic potencies available in the market have molecules of respective starting material. Homeopathic Dr. MAS, who works in many homeopathic pharmacies as scientific research officer as freelance worker, disclosed this. He said, homeopathic potencies are prepared in series without the discontinuation of transferring of solute to next compound (see real bowl picture below) and adding of fresh solvent in the same compound. He further explained that when pharmacies manufacture potencies on large scale then they put solute in Compound No.1 and add solvent through black pipes and then 10 shakes are given. From the compound no. 1, without any break, the solute is transferred in the compound no 2 through another tube where jerks are given in compound no 2. This process is continuous upto compound no 30 (see arrow bowl no 17) for preparing 30c till it transfers to korosakov machine from where 200 to cm potencies are prepared.

The manufactures adopt continuous method. There is no break in the preparation of potencies. When evacuation of the compound (bowl) is made, at the same time the machine fills the compound with fresh alcohol and jerks are given. This process is very fast.
Our homeopathic group have visited hundred of homeopathic pharmacies under the leadership of Dr. MAS.

Visit pharmacy: http://www.communitypk.com/cpk/kamal.htm

He was repeatedly trying to convince to skeptics that you don’t have the practical experience of making homeopathic potencies. You have only book knowledge and you never did experiment. You have only baseless arguments, which have no real life experience.

Dr. MAS said, In the picture, you can see that different compounds are fixed in group of series having no 1, 2, 3….. 14, 15, 16, 17 etc (arrow also indicating). During potency preparation, the solvent is added through black pipes and after spinning (fans are visible) and perform balloon jerks are given. The process is automatic, more solvent is added and old solution is transferred in the next compound numbered as (15, 16, 17 etc).

The skeptic point of view was homeopathic potencies do not have molecules of starting material in above 12c potency. It was also their claim that according to Avogadros law non of the molecules of starting material can exist at above 12c potency. Skeptics offered one million dollar to prove the existence of molecules in homeopathic potencies in above 12c prepartion.

Dr. MAS accepted that challenge and beaten skeptics at their home ground and home crowed with lot of skeptics self made family members and aliases all around by providing real life evidence that homeopathic potencies do have molecules of starting material in 13c potency and Avogadros law is not applicable as skeptics were applying.

After proving the challenge, Dr. MAS regretted to claim one million dollar and said, if randi wants then he is ready to donate one million dollar to association that is sponsored by hhomeopharma, iqra and like homeopathic pharmacies.
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Old 31st January 2006, 03:01 AM
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As such, how molecules of raw remedy's substances will remain present in all the prepared remedies material in 30C or above potencies?
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Old 31st January 2006, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
The skeptic point of view was homeopathic potencies do not have molecules of starting material in above 12c potency. It was also their claim that according to Avogadros law non of the molecules of starting material can exist at above 12c potency.
That is still the position. However, it has been recognized that in a practical pharmacy, the general contamination level will be far too high to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit. We calculated that even in a good laboratory, after 4-5C there will be no control over what is in the remedy, chemically.


Quote:
Skeptics offered one million dollar to prove the existence of molecules in homeopathic potencies in above 12c prepartion.
This information is incorrect. The JREF prize of 1 million dollars is available for anybody who demonstrates something paranormal. To find molecules in a preparation due to imperfect laboratory practice is not paranormal.

Quote:
Dr. MAS accepted that challenge and beaten skeptics at their home ground and home crowed with lot of skeptics
This information is incorrect. Dr. MAS has not applied for the JREF challenge. You do not participate in the challenge by discussing on the JREF froum, you file an application according to the JREF rules. Dr. MAS has not filed an application.

Quote:
self made family members and aliases
This is a lie that Dr. MAS has been perpetuating in the JREF forum, that the identities he discussed with were just a number of aliasses. If they were, they would be in violation of the rules of the JREF forum, but Dr. MAS has never provided the slightest evidence for his accusations.

Quote:
all around by providing real life evidence that homeopathic potencies do have molecules of starting material in 13c potency and Avogadros law is not applicable as skeptics were applying.
This is incorrect. All Dr. MAS has demonstrated is that a real-life lab has no control over what is in a remedy at potencies even lower thant 13C. He has not demonstrated that this necessarily means that the starting material is present, and especially not that it is present above the numerous other contaminants.

Finally, he has not demonstrated how this is relevant for the discussion of how homeopathic remedies work.

Quote:
After proving the challenge, Dr. MAS regretted to claim one million dollar and said, if randi wants then he is ready to donate one million dollar to association that is sponsored by hhomeopharma, iqra and like homeopathic pharmacies.
I have to call this a lie. Whoever writes this should know that the information is incorrect. Dr. MAS has not won anything. He has not even applied for the JREF challenge.


To the administrators: This is the second thread that has been opened about this subject. The other one was deleted. I hope you will leave this one, at it is only reasonable that we have a chance to correct the misinformation above.

Hans
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Old 31st January 2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
To the administrators: This is the second thread that has been opened about this subject. The other one was deleted. I hope you will leave this one, at it is only reasonable that we have a chance to correct the misinformation above.

Hans
Is that what happened to the threads I've been asking about ? They got deleted ?

How is that possible ? Is this due to bugs in the software ?

MC
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Old 31st January 2006, 09:47 AM
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Default Pls clear it

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
*That is still the position. However, it has been recognized that in a practical pharmacy, the general contamination level will be far too high to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit. We calculated that even in a good laboratory, after 4-5C there will be no control over what is in the remedy, chemically...
Hans
Can you tell, what do you mean by "general contamination level be far too high"? Are you refering to active and carrier substance particles or molecules evapoured during potentization process(not contaminations) or other outside standard/normal contaminations?

Can you also tell, what do you mean by "to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit"--does it related to active substances or any molecule in normal contaminations?
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Old 31st January 2006, 01:36 PM
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Kayveeh, this was explained to you elsewhere. Contamination can be anything:

Dust, skin particles, chemicals in use in the lab, vapors of different kinds in the air, feacal matter, remains from insects, particles worn off machinery and furniture, contaminations in dilution media, contaminations in chemicals, etc, etc.

When you get down to the sub-ppm levels, you will find, even in a quite clean lab, hundreds, if not thousands of different substances.

Since the influx of these substances is constant, the level of their presense is not determined by the dilution ratio, but by the general contamination "floor" of the facility in question. As this floor can be shown to be billions of times more concentrated than concentrations near the Avogadro limit, the discussion of what happens at or near this limit becomes academic.

If you will allow me a slightly bold analogy: If you pee in the ocean, does it become more polluted? The academical answer is yes, but for all practical purposes, it makes no difference at all.

Hans
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Old 31st January 2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
Kayveeh, this was explained to you elsewhere. Contamination can be anything:

Dust, skin particles, chemicals in use in the lab, vapors of different kinds in the air, feacal matter, remains from insects, particles worn off machinery and furniture, contaminations in dilution media, contaminations in chemicals, etc, etc.
Those can be common, constant or standard contaminants in all remedies and their effects may not be variable between different remedies. What about airborned particles of active substances?

Quote:
When you get down to the sub-ppm levels, you will find, even in a quite clean lab, hundreds, if not thousands of different substances.

Since the influx of these substances is constant, the level of their presense is not determined by the dilution ratio, but by the general contamination "floor" of the facility in question. As this floor can be shown to be billions of times more concentrated than concentrations near the Avogadro limit, the discussion of what happens at or near this limit becomes academic.
Yes, but this may be true in allopathic sense. In homeopathic sense, where even ultramolecular substances are considered important, we can look deep into it.

Quote:
If you will allow me a slightly bold analogy: If you pee in the ocean, does it become more polluted? The academical answer is yes, but for all practical purposes, it makes no difference at all.

Hans
But it might have not been potentised or made airborne. If you feel that we have to base on substancial chemical presence to justify in allopathic way, then why to waste time. Anyway, some rules/laws are there which suggest that weaker stumuli or lesser quantity of substance can encourage physiological effects or act opposite to chemicals in higher quantity.
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Old 1st February 2006, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayveeh
Those can be common, constant or standard contaminants in all remedies and their effects may not be variable between different remedies. What about airborned particles of active substances?
What about them? They are just part of the noise.

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Yes, but this may be true in allopathic sense. In homeopathic sense, where even ultramolecular substances are considered important, we can look deep into it.
You don't understand this at all, do you?

Quote:
But it might have not been potentised or made airborne.
What difference would that make?

Quote:
If you feel that we have to base on substancial chemical presence to justify in allopathic way, then why to waste time.
Yes, why do you and I waste time on this? I don't know about you, but I picked up this line because some Pakistani homeopaths kept insisting it was important. I don't know why they think so, and since you apparantly don't think so, I don't know why you are participating.

Quote:
Anyway, some rules/laws are there which suggest that weaker stumuli or lesser quantity of substance can encourage physiological effects or act opposite to chemicals in higher quantity.
Irrelevant.

Hans
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Old 3rd February 2006, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
What about them? They are just part of the noise.
Means, you agree clearly that molecules of active substance can be present in every homeopathic remedy??

Quote:
You don't understand this at all, do you?
About effects by few molecules or weak stumuli, many laws are indicated. That we can discuss seprately, if you are interested.

Quote:
What difference would that make?
Not become airborne.



Quote:
Yes, why do you and I waste time on this? I don't know about you, but I picked up this line because some Pakistani homeopaths kept insisting it was important. I don't know why they think so, and since you apparantly don't think so, I don't know why you are participating.

Irrelevant.

Hans
I respect all knowledges and possibilities. I don't say that few molecular presence can't effect as we have many laws/practices/theories which suggest that weak stmuli/sensation can trigger/encourage physiological(I add phychlogical also) activities...and can pursue if science people want/encourage and support it. Do you?
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Old 3rd February 2006, 07:33 AM
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KV, you apparantly don't understand this. You are just doing your usual picking whatever detail that suits you out of the context.

The weak stimuli effects are not about a few molecules. They are about a low dose, and that is something entirely different.

Also, your line of argumentation is fatal to your cause: If you want to argue that a few molecules of a substance in a remedy can be responsible for the effect, you are in serious trouble, because, as I have explained, a remedy will contain millions of molecules of hundreds of different substances, so how are you going to argue that precisely those of the raw substance, if present, are responsible for the effect?

I have asked you before, KV, do you have any idea of the size of a molecule?

Hans
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