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Old 2nd February 2006, 01:29 PM
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OK so rcts don't work for homeopathy. Please tell me how you would demonstrate to a high level of certainty that homeoapthic remedies work. (and PLEASE don't say "they just do"!).

One other question I've always wanted to ask is this: If a homeopath was to prepare 2 remedies but make a deliberate mistake with one of them, swapping the mother solution for ordinary solvent, do you think a good analytical chemist or microbiologist could tell the difference between the solutions? To clarify, 2 remedies, prepared in exactly the same way from the same solvents, only one has never seen the active ingredient.
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Old 2nd February 2006, 03:18 PM
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quote=String Theory]OK so rcts don't work for homeopathy. Please tell me how you would demonstrate to a high level of certainty that homeoapthic remedies work. (and PLEASE don't say "they just do"!).assuming you are talking to moi, this is what the point of many of my posts to these discussions has been about: how to develop better quantitative methods to measure homeopathy. in brief, it is a difficult problem, and i have offered a few ideas in various discussions, how to improve on rct's and how to design an more generally valid research strategy, for example, that can correlate findings from rct's, prospective studies, clinical evidence (case based, not quantitative), lab work, etc. actually, i'd consider basic research (physics) to be the ultimate best approach, but, you know, how long can that take?

i have tried to analyze, as well, the problems with rct's implemented up until now, in two articles at the hpathy ezine, last april and most recently, this january. i seriously am not an "opponent" of quantitative research, but have for a long time been very bothered by inappropriate design when applied to some applications, including psychotherapy, for example, or even abx trials in audio gear - and the very real consequences that unjustified conclusions have had on real world medical care, most particularly mental health care, based on those inappropriate conclusions.

One other question I've always wanted to ask is this: If a homeopath was to prepare 2 remedies but make a deliberate mistake with one of them, swapping the mother solution for ordinary solvent, do you think a good analytical chemist or microbiologist could tell the difference between the solutions? no To clarify, 2 remedies, prepared in exactly the same way from the same solvents, only one has never seen the active ingredient?
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Old 3rd February 2006, 07:12 AM
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If the 2 remedies are 'physically' the same thing, could a homeopath use either remedy?
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Old 3rd February 2006, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by String Theory
If the 2 remedies are 'physically' the same thing, could a homeopath use either remedy?
they are 'chemically' the same, not 'physically' the same. but i think you know that already. and don't ask me to explain how they are physically differentiated...i really don't have any interest in debating whether there are still discoveries to be made in physics, especially as there is no way to settle the question, and it doesn't have any direct bearing on our difference of opinion, that is, whether or how homeopathic remedies can be demonstrated as efficacious.
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Old 3rd February 2006, 12:05 PM
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Ehrrm. Just to nitpick, Neil: You mean that you claim that they are not physically identical.

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Old 20th October 2008, 07:03 PM
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Talking none so blind

Dr Agrawal,
I also learned homoeopathy in India.
I appreciate your posts - they attest to the truth of homoeopathy.
Stringtheory,
the proof of the remedy is found in NMR testing and Electron microscopy.
Nanophase particles can be seen with EM and NMR detects that homoeopathic remedies have a sinus wave not found in mere dilutions.
I bet you have access to neither and thus will dismiss this as me just saying something.
Moopet,
you are just a nitpicker, like Hans and both of you are so ignorant, i wonder if you evene finished highschool, considering the points you try to score.
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Old 20th October 2008, 07:07 PM
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Talking nanophase potencies

Nanophase Potencies

In homoeopathy, the theoretical basis is covered by the Organon, as far as most homoeopaths are concerned. There are some, who theorise more than others, witness the books that have been written on the theory of homoeopathy. George Vithoulkas has written books that admirably seek to make the homoeopathic way of thinking accessible to the public. Similarly, Harris Coulter has published several titles that attempt to explain some of the theoretical difficulties we encounter in homoeopathy. Several other homoeopaths, too many to mention all here, have contributed to the understanding of the theoretical foundations of homoeopathy.
While the allopathic orthodox brethren invariably declare all such attempts superfluous or flawed, they have served at least as reference points for the student of homoeopathy. In all these attempts the focus has been more on the theoretical basis of how homoeopathy works than on anything else.
Over the years, many eminent minds have broken their heads over our potency conundrum. How does the remedy become suspended in the carrier and how is it possible that it gives us medicinal power, when the crude does not even show any? Several have tried to find an explanation for the apparent contradiction that with the reduction in quantity, there is a simultaneous increase in power in our homoeopathic potencies.
To date, none of the esteemed colleagues have been capable of addressing this adequately, at least not to my personal satisfaction. Several attempts have been made, but none are completely satisfactory. They all proceed from the carrier – water, ethanol or lactose – in an attempt to explain how and why the carrier apparently takes on the properties of the remedy.
Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as recently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

1. In 1948, Wormser and Loch tested several substances from 24X to 30X. They used a photoelectric cell, to measure the intensity and wavelength of these potencies and found measurable changes, of both intensity and wave-length in these substances.

2. In the years 1951-3, Gay and Boiron tested both distilled water and Natrum muriaticum in the 27C potency for their dielectric constant. They were able to show that the potency of Natrum mur. could be easily selected from among 99 control bottles.

3. In 1963, Boericke and Smith tested a 12X potency of Sulphur, with and without succussion. They tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. They found that there were structural changes in the solvent, as the potency was increased by succussion, while no such change was detected in the controls. They repeated the experiment in 1974, with diverse potencies of Sulphur, up to the 30C.

4. In 1966, Stephenson and Brucato tested both distilled water and Mercurius corrosivus, from the 1X to the 33X. They found that the dielectric constant for the controls varied from 5.6 to 6.05. For the homoeopathic potencies it varied from 2.8 to 4.4.

5. In 1975, Young tested Sulphur from 5X to 30X, with controls. He also tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. He found that there were measurable changes in the spectra at each dilution and succussion. No such changes were observed for the solution without succussion or without Sulphur.

6. In 1976, Boiron and Vinh used Raman Laser Spectroscopy, showing that for the 1C potency of Kali bichromicum the spectrum of alcohol disappears completely, while that for potassium bichromate appears. In Kali bich 1C the ratio of the number of potassium bichromate molecules is 1 to 500. In such a case the light meets 500 more alcohol molecules as those of bichromate, yet the alcohol spectrum does not appear.

7. In 1982, Resch, Gutman and Schauer found that dilute sodium chloride solutions revealed an increase in electrical conductivity, by rocking them prior to measurement.

8. Four French researchers developed a method of detection through nuclear magnetic resonance, conducted in the late 80's, which shows specific sinus waves for each potency, as well as a specific sinus wave for the substance used. These latter remain the same throughout all potencies of that substance, while the sinus wave expressing the potencies, are specific to those potencies. Thus a clear and recognisable scientifically provable frame of reference exists, for each remedy and potency.

9. More recent NMR studies have reached similar conclusions (Demangeat et al., 1992; Weingärtner, 1992).

10. Recent experiments with Raman Laser Spectrography have shown that a 1M potency (1 divided by 100 to the –1000th power) of Kali bichromicum reveal the spectrum of Kali bichromicum and not that of water. It must be realized that there are supposedly no molecules of Kali bichromicum present in this dilution rate, since it is way beyond Avogadro’s limit, which lies at 1024 or 10012.

11. Another Raman Laser Spectrography test with Natrum muriaticum 10M showed the spectrum of Chloride of sodium, instead that of water. It must be noted that here the dilution rate is a 1000 times smaller still than that of the previous example.

12. Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10-30 g/cm-3) have been irradiated by X-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermo luminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.

These are however not explanations, but only the physical proofs we pos­sess that potencies have something more than distilled water and alcohol. From these examples it is obvious that there exists a particular quality in homoeopathic medicines not found in mere dilutions beyond Avogadro’s limit and even before that. We mention this, because we expect some resistance from the mechanistic heads at work in the diverse research facilities, which will no doubt put forward many objections against the use of homoeopathy in high dilutions.
From Avogadro to Quantum Mechanics

The silliest of these is Avogadro’s limit, which tells you nothing more than that in any given substance, there are no more molecules found beyond the 12th centesimal or the 24th decimal dilution. However, there are between 2 and 250 atoms in each molecule, so their relative size should have an influence on the dilution rate – at least in the potencies. Moreover, Avogadro discovered the limit for gases, where the molecules always have the same size, regardless the amount of atoms per molecule, while its use for dilutions is but a derived value. Even the use of the term is misleading for that reason alone and thus not scientifically sound.

Avogadro’s limit tells you nothing more than that he had no means to detect beyond the molecular level. Yet we find that nuclear magnetic resonance sinus waves are not found in Avogadro’s dilutions, but are visible from the second homoeopathic potency onward. This is because the homoeopathic potencies are not mere dilutions, but receive the succussions that are believed to confer their power.
However, the mystery remains. These are also not explanations, but merely the gathering of relatively useful data. These data moreover, are not the process.
In reality, our remedies are quantum mechanical entities, which derive their effectiveness not from the imagination of the patient or some such magical superstition. We shall try to satisfactorily explain our potencies from the modern scientific point of view. As Dr Colin Lessel stated:

“We also do not believe we must succumb to the onslaught of these orthodox superstitions or their demands of pseudo-scientific rigidity, but finally be able to explain our entire doctrine, especially our potencies, scientifically.”
(Lessell C. The Infinitesimal Dose)

If we examine the ultra-small achievements of technology, we notice that nobody makes objections to the micro-chip, nanobots, atomic particles such as neutrons, quantum-mechanical photons and other examples of ultra-small scale, while denying the same for homoeopathic remedies.
This is due to bias and/or prejudice, of which our opponents have plentiful supplies, but which in the face of the reality of homeopathic potencies are not very scientific, to say the least. In reality, it is utterly childish. We might expect at least adult behaviour in those scientists that are opposed to homoeopathy through ignorance.

“By means of this procedure a change is effected in the given drug, which in the crude state shows itself as material – often unmedicinal material. The higher dynamisations liberate the dynamic conscious medicinal power, which in itself is imperceptible by the senses. The medicinally prepared globules are but the carrier of the inherent consciousness of the medicine. In this condition they manifest their healing power on the sick mind and body.”
(Hahnemann S. Organon § 270)

Nanophase technology is a relatively new way of using materials – at least in the field of technology. It seeks to change the properties of a substance through an extreme reduction in size of the particles, according to the principles set out by the physicist Richard Feynman, quoted above. When the particle size is reduced to nanometre size, it is smaller than the critical mass associated with its regular properties. As a result, those properties change to something different and the difference is determined through control of the size of the particles.

In regular nanophase technology the properties wanted are malleability, elasticity, hardness, superconductivity or ceramic, among several other options. In order to arrive at the nanophase, the substance is boiled and brought in the gaseous state. The gaseous particles are then passed through an inert gas like helium or a chemically active gas such as oxygen, depending on the properties that are wanted after precipitation.

In the case of the inert gas, the properties of the substance itself are changed. In this manner, malleability, elasticity or the hardness of the substance are changed, depending the size of the particles. In the case of a reactive gas, the structure of the substance is changed. Thus, a metal becomes a ceramic or superconductive, also dependent on the particle size. Since control of the particle size is a relatively easy matter, substances can be made with great accuracy.
Besides the boiling method, nanophase technology makes use of super-finely ground powders to produce its diverse products. In the case of superfine powders, the resultant product is again dependent on the particle size. It is the latter method that applies to homoeopathic potencies, since they also depend on grinding the substance to the appropriate sizes, so that the medicinal powers are released or developed.
Another method makes use of neutrons to bombard a substance and so reduce it to the nanophase. The neutrons peel off neutrons from the substance and so reduce the size and hence change the properties. Depending on how many neutrons are peeled off, different properties arise. The control consists of regulating the amount of neutrons bombarding it or the amount of time they are bombarded.
More Ways to Skin a Cat

The manner in which to arrive at the nanophase must have some bearing on the type of properties generated, otherwise they would stick with one method only. Different examples can be given in which this is the case. There is more than one way to skin a cat. We shall reiterate them here for the benefit of the student.
· The Gastein gneiss formation and its nanophase suspension in the drinking water, producing cretinism.
· The fluxion potencies that generate the equivalent of a 10M from a 3c in one hour.
· The suspension of nanophase particles of lead and copper in drinking water, where such conduits are used.
· Volcanic action, where under heat and pressure one type of stone or other material turns into another.
· Cooking, where the ingredients all change properties.
· Bombarding a substance with neutrons, so that it falls apart in nanophase particles of a particular size, generating particular properties.
· Boiling a substance and driving it through an inert gas to crystallise the nanoparticles, precipitating them onto the wanted precipitate.
· Boiling a substance and driving it through a reactive gas to crystallise the nanoparticles, precipitating them onto the wanted precipitate.
· Superfine grinding of substances to the nanophase, to obtain different properties.

Since there are several ways in which the nanophase can be obtained, we propose that trituration or superfine grinding is accepted as a valid manner in which to obtain nanophase particles that generate different properties.

How is it possible that solid materials become soluble in water or alcohol? The solids never do. The answer is that under pressure – with the mortar and pestle – the grains are reduced to nanometre size and they slide over each other easier than millimetre sized ones. In the case of solids, the grains are bound to each other. A fracture occurs when too many of these bonds break. If a crack opens, atoms from the lactose begin to move to fill them in. The smaller the grain size, the shorter the distance the lactose atoms have to travel and thus the finer the substance can be ground. Simultaneously, the substance particles are penetrating the lactose particles in the same manner, thus passing on their properties to the lactose.

Our lactose component differs from the nanophase, in which boiling is used to create the equally sized particles and a gas is used to crystallise the particles, which is wanted in a nanophase material. We on the other hand, want to crush those bonds as well as create particles of different sizes and so change the properties of the material. The lactose achieves the opposite of the inert gas used in nanophase materials.

Just as nanophase technology discovers new properties in matter, homoeopathy has done so for the last 200 years. Our potencies are quantum mechanically different from ordinary solids, liquids or substances – both in nano-technology and homoeopathic potencies, which are quantum mechanical dilutions. While nanotechnology mainly uses the boiling point of materials or alternatively superfine powders to precipitate nano-sized particles, we use the mortar and pestle to achieve the same – reduction to nano-size particles. The processes do not differ greatly – grinding equals heat and pressure. In the making of a potency, we seek to divide the nanophased particles, as opposed to the nanotechnologists, who seek to collect them.

A homoeopathic remedy is a nanophase half-product, which needs the human body to precipitate its entire product, which can be either of two – health or disease. Therefore it is invisible or in potentio as long as precipitation does not take place.
Possibility or potency is called pradhana in Sanskrit and refers to the potential characteristics inherent in matter, provided you find the means to unlock them. Pradhana also refers to consciousness, as consciousness is the foundation and origin of everything that exists.

Pradhana also means foundation, because possibility equals foundation. Thus the law of similars is the foundation of homoeopathy and an explanation of pradhana. The ramifications of the relationships between spiritual knowledge and healing with homoeopathy are staggering. To heal means to make whole and holy. Hence throughout history we see that the real healers like Jesus and Chaitanya were also holy men. Healing involves more than the giving of some medicine; the healer must also pay attention to the spiritual development of the patient, as otherwise the latter will fall sick again and again.”
(Kaviraj V.d. Essays on the Philosophy (unpublished))

Trituration is the separation of the nanospheres from the original substance, passing through lactose as the carrier, before precipitation in the body with either health or disease as the final product. In summary:
1. At the nanophase different properties arise in potentio.
2. They pass through a medium before precipitating into the final product.
3. Until precipitation, the properties are in suspension or in potentio.
4. A potency consists of a product reduced to nano-phase, suspended in a medium before precipitation.
5. Precipitation produces the final product – either health or disease.
These quintessential stages apply to all nanophase products, whether visible as a product with a single property or as one with multi-properties. It merely depends on how many differently sized nanospheres have been suspended in the original carrier. Succussion imprints the entire nanophase upon the carrier, including all its latent properties. At the release of those properties onto the precipitating medium the entire product becomes visible.
To understand the concept of nanophase potencies the following points regarding nanophase materials and products must be considered:
1. When control is obtained of the arrangement of things on a very small scale, we arrive at an enormously greater range of possible properties that substances can have. (See also Organon § 269)

2. When the size of the building blocks of matter become smaller than the critical length scale associated with any property that property changes and can be engineered through size control. (See also Organon § 270)

3. There exist a variety of synthesis methods to produce nanophase materials.
· Synthesis from atomic precursors.
· Synthesis from molecular precursors – homoeopathic potencies.
· Chemical means.
· Physical means – homoeopathic triturations.
· Mechanical grain refinement – homoeopathic triturations.
· Bombarding a substance with neutrons, so that it falls apart in nanophase particles of a particular size, generating particular properties.
· Boiling a substance and driving it through an inert gas to crystallise the nanoparticles, precipitating them onto the wanted precipitate.
· Preferably nanophase materials are made by chemical and physical means, because in them size control is the easiest. However, other methods yield valuable results, sometimes with greater ease. Trituration is such a process and so is succussion.
· Nanophase materials are made by bringing a metal to a boil and collecting the evaporated atoms by exposing them to an inert gas, like helium to cool them down. They then condense as small spheroid clusters. The exact diameter is controlled by the evaporation rate and the type and pressure of the inert gas. Accumulation and precipitation produces a macro-material.
· Ultra fine powders can be made into consolidate materials. Trituration is a way to arrive at the superfine powder stage.
· Nanophase titania is made from 10 nanometre clusters of titanium reacted with oxygen.
· A nanophase metal is formed without any reaction with other elements, using an inert gas for precipitation.
· A nanophase ceramic is formed only with a reaction with an appropriate gas, such as oxygen, which is reactive.
· Each other material is determined by the size of the clusters and the gas, reactive or not.

4. This process can produce metals, ceramics, semiconductors, superconductors, polymers with optical, chemical and/or electrical properties. Transparency, UV protection, colouring, cosmetics, catalysts and magnetic properties can all be made with nanophase technology. In homoeopathy, it produces medicinality, with mental and physical symptoms.

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Old 20th October 2008, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaviraj View Post
Dr Agrawal,
I also learned homoeopathy in India.
I appreciate your posts - they attest to the truth of homoeopathy.
Stringtheory,
the proof of the remedy is found in NMR testing and Electron microscopy.
Nanophase particles can be seen with EM and NMR detects that homoeopathic remedies have a sinus wave not found in mere dilutions.
I bet you have access to neither and thus will dismiss this as me just saying something.
Really? Well, unless you have anything to back that up, I'll dismiss it as you just saying something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaviraj View Post
Moopet,
you are just a nitpicker, like Hans and both of you are so ignorant, i wonder if you evene finished highschool, considering the points you try to score.
Erm. You're quite rude; I don't like you.
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Old 20th October 2008, 09:56 PM
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Default Homeopathy 101

Lectures on Homeopathic Philosophy

Posted for the purpose of all the skeptics on board who do not understand a thing about homeopathy,yet have a lot of circular rhetoric to say.


The physician who does not know what order is ought not to be trusted.
It is the duty of the physician, then, first to find out what is in man that is disorder, and then to restore him to health ; and this return to health, which is a perfect cure, is to be accomplished by means that are mild, that are orderly, that flow gently like the life force itself, turning the internal of man into order, with fixed principles as his guide, and by the homoeopathic remedy.
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Old 20th October 2008, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by String Theory View Post
One other question I've always wanted to ask is this: If a homeopath was to prepare 2 remedies but make a deliberate mistake with one of them, swapping the mother solution for ordinary solvent, do you think a good analytical chemist or microbiologist could tell the difference between the solutions? To clarify, 2 remedies, prepared in exactly the same way from the same solvents, only one has never seen the active ingredient.
Sure. Let's say he was making up some 3X Kali mur, and put in Mag phos instead. It would be a quick bit of work for a analytical chemist to figure out the difference.

For remedies below the Avogadro limit, it depends on the substance and analytical techniques used.
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