An Offer: Win one million Rupees

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #1 (**permalink**) 29th June 2005, 10:41 PM

The skeptics attack on homeopathic efficacy is from various directions. They readily change their directions from one point to another. Sometime they talk about efficacy, sometime about avogadro's number and sometime about similia principle etc. They also claim "Homeopathy is paranormal". Dr. MAS has offered with the consultation of WHCC executives one million rupees to them. If they claim, homeopathy is paranormal they can win one million ruppees without visiting Pakistan. Just prove it whatever the method they like.

Here is the offer:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=23

Quote:

Kharian (WHCC Press Report)

World Homeopathic Computer Club (WHCC) meeting was held in Kharian City. 25 executive and 37 general members attended the meeting. The members were specially came from different cities to discuss the agenda of opening of a new free homeopathic dispensary in the area. They also reviewed the last three months WHCC homeopathic activities.

The chief executive Dr. MAS informed the members about the issue being discussed at www.randi.org JREF forum. He told the members that few people have the opinion that the conducting behavior of homeopathy is “Paranormal” in nature. He unveiled that JREF has offered “One Million Dollar Prize Money” to that person who will demonstrate or confirm that “homeopathy does work”. To them homeopathy is “paranormal” and it has placebo effect.

Dr. MAS also briefed the participant about the debate, which is running at www.nch.ipbfree.com and JREF forum. He said, NCH in its newly built official web site www.nchpakistan.com created a new “homeopathic skeptic forum” in its general forum. He said, this is the bold step taken by NCH. He criticized on launching the skeptic forum. He said, skeptics do not like us and sending biased information against homeopathy without having knowledge of prerequisite of scientific principles and laws.

He said, when I requested to skeptics to define what exactly the meaning of “Paranormal” is to them. They all failed to state the exact requirement. Everybody was explaining in his own understanding and did not support any evidence in their claim. Each member was declaring his/her opinion correct and were denying the others like “Too many cooks spoil the broth” (every player had an idea for how the music should go) .

After too much argument, one finally disclosed that according to the scientific law i.e “Avogadro’s Law” you can’t find molecule of homeopathic starting material in above 24x potency. When it was asked who told you or did you see yourself the molecules in the dilution or you are depending upon other biased information then they unable reply correctly.

They were looking at the dark side and were not ready to understand that the man who presented that idea actually proved that equation of Avogadro’s law on paper and not through practical means and secondly he did not know the process of dynamization and succession process which we mostly perform in order to prepare homeopathic potency.

Dr. MAS said, I inquired,

Why probability rule was not applied and why the emphasis was given specially over Avogadro’s law. He also said, there are so many laws and principles which can be applied over homeopathic dilutions in order to understand its fact. Dr. MAS informed the executive members that Homeopathic starting materials are found in various forms e.g. solid, liquid and gas etc He said, we also use hydrogen potency, the preparation of hydrogen is different from the solid based preparation.

The particles in a solid cannot change places so a solid will keep its shape (unless it is broken). Liquids can flow. This is because the particles can move past each other. The forces holding the particles together in a liquid are not as strong as those in a solid. In gases, the particles are very spread out. The particles are always changing places with each other. For each preparation of homeopathic dilution the procedure is different and scientific formula to explain chemical action is also different depends upon the solute and solvent. The properties of things depend on what particles are there and how the particles are arranged.

He said, we also know that molecules break down during chemical reaction. This is the simplest fact in the scientific world. Suppose, if we success two chemicals during the preparation of homeopathic potency then in each potency a chemical reaction between the solute and solvent will take place. We should always keep this reaction in mind during the study of Avogadro’s effect in potency making.

Dr. MAS said, we cannot oversight other laws of chemistry like probability law during the preparation of potency preparation. He further explained that the probability of two independent events both occurring is equal to the product of their individual probabilities. He presented an example and said, If you flip a coin the probability of its being heads is 1/2 or 0.5. If you flip a second coin the probability that it will be heads is also 1/2 or 0.5. However, the probability that both coins will turn up heads is 1/2 x 1/2, or 1/4. If you flip three coins the probability that all three will turn up heads is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2, or 1/8. In the same way, when you take one drop from the previous dilution then probability of transfer of molecules from one dilution to another would be of different in each case. He denies that Avogadro’s law is the single law applicable on homeopathic dilutions. The big thing to remember... Matter can change in two major ways, physically and chemically. There is lot of difference between mixture and chemical bonding. Remedies involve serial dilutions by factors of 10 or 100 with succession. Remedies are also potentized, using a variety of methods which include vortices and rhythmic movements of liquids, exposure to warmth and light rhythms, and so on. Biodynamic field and compost preparations are potentized through a dynamic stirring methods.

The skeptics think that when you dissolve Opium then a mixture of Opium and solvent (alcohol or water ) is produced. This is wrong. Beside mixture, chemical bonding between the ingredients of Opium and solvent (pure Alcohol or distilled water) were also took place. They only study the mixture behavior of Opium and alcohol and they do not give weightage to chemical reaction, which is going on between Opium constituents (many alkaloids) and alcohol (here alcohol means any solvent it may be water, alcohol or glycerin etc) molecules, in each potency. Opium has six alkaloids, Morphine is one of it, which also reacts with the solvent i.e. if opium (very first starting material) is reacting with solvent, then other six alkaloids or ingredients of homeopathic potencies are also reacting with solvents. And for their kind information, pharmacists on the very first stage dissolve opium with alcohol in order to extract morphine from it. They also stir the alcohol during the extraction process. What does this mean, it means according to probability law, when you dissolve or success a homeopathic starting material in the solvent then the starting material also breaks down into its contents. Whether it breaks or not, the probability will be remained effective, if the starting material breaks into its constituents (whether by chemical means or through physical process), then according to the probability law, the second dilution might form another chemical structure which can be termed as opium 2 (although the starting material at start was opium), so if on a dilution bottle, opium 30c is printed than it is quite possible that it may not contain pure molecules of opium rather many molecules of opium and its ingredients. But as the starting material, which was used at startup was opium hence for understanding it was declared as opium 30c.

Here another question arises, which skeptics were unable to understood.

When the molecules of a starting material (homeo medicines) were broken down and it was transferred in dilution number two during succession process then why the molecules of starting material (and its constituents) in potency number two were not considered as “single” mole again? This is the most important question to deny “single” Avogadro’s law application.

The executive committee of the club reviewed the claim “homeopathy is paranormal” made by JREF and declared it an unjustified.

In the end, it was decided to offer One Million Rupees to those who will prove that “Homeopathy is paranormal”, In this regard, a committee was formulated which will define terms and condition in a week which will be notified later on at www.nchpakistan.com forum.

Further correspondence if any can be addressed at

drmasvoice@hotmail.com
drmasvoice@yahoo.com
drmasvoice@gmail.com

www.drmas.tk

Edited by changing font size and color to normal. I think this actually improves the readability. Hans.

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #2 (**permalink**) 29th June 2005, 10:54 PM

2nd protocol......

When a single drop from 1st potency (which was prepared according to the ratio 1/99) was taken into 2nd bottle, can you confirm that the exact ratio of "starting material" was been transfered?

Remember, 1st potency was prepared with the ratio 1/99 i.e one drop of starting material was taken and 99 drops of fresh pure solvent (alcohol) was added and then it was jerked 10 times. The lonly drops was got mixed and now you have to take one drop from the previous potency as "new starting material".

Can you confirm that this new drop which was taken as new starting material contain 1/99 ratio of probablity?

Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material drop may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material.

What is your claim?

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #3 (**permalink**) 29th June 2005, 10:55 PM

Few Rules:

1. First send request letter at my clinic with your complete introduction and academic qualification. Your ID number is must.

2. Send your thesis endorse with three Ph.D's Doctors from three different Universities with complete postal address and national ID numbers.

3. Our prize committee comprises of Ph.D doctors will examine your thesis. If the committee recommend and approved your study, you can win one million rupees.

4. This offer is valid for one month from 1st may 2005.

5. Committee decision is final.

Registeration is free.

MRC_Hans · #4 (**permalink**) 30th June 2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Aamir Shahzad

*snip*
4. This offer is valid for one month from 1st may 2005.

*snip*

Excuse me, but is something wrong with you? Why do you repeat this "challenge" a month after it expired?

That aside, it has been explained that we cannot prove homeopathy works by paranormal means, since that would require us to prove that it works, and nobody has, to date, succeeded in doing that.

Hans

MRC_Hans · #5 (**permalink**) 30th June 2005, 07:29 AM

2nd protocol......

When a single drop from 1st potency (which was prepared according to the ratio 1/99) was taken into 2nd bottle, can you confirm that the exact ratio of "starting material" was been transfered?

Depending on what you mean by "exact" the answer is affirmative. In the first potency, the number of atoms in a drop of material is very high, so within several decimal places, the ratio is the same.

Remember, 1st potency was prepared with the ratio 1/99 i.e one drop of starting material was taken and 99 drops of fresh pure solvent (alcohol) was added and then it was jerked 10 times. The lonly drops was got mixed and now you have to take one drop from the previous potency as "new starting material".

Can you confirm that this new drop which was taken as new starting material contain 1/99 ratio of probablity?

The term "ratio of probability" is meaningless, but yes, the probability that the ratio is 1/99 is very high.

Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material drop may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material.

No. According to the probability law, the odds against the ratio being much different from the remaining mixture in a 1% sample are astronomical.

Hans

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #6 (**permalink**) 30th June 2005, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Excuse me, but is something wrong with you? Why do you repeat this "challenge" a month after it expired?

That aside, it has been explained that we cannot prove homeopathy works by paranormal means, since that would require us to prove that it works, and nobody has, to date, succeeded in doing that.

Hans

I am not offering to compete for this prize. I pasted the info for rest of the members in the sense, that was the offer which was offered to skeptics and they failed to register a single form.

If anybody among the skeptics are still willing to compete for this competition, I can request to WHCC officials to permit him/her on special ground.

Ok, if you cannot prove paranormality you can prove Badly shaved monkey avogadros formula which is not applicable on homeopathic solutions becuase thuja solution works even in cm. YOu are free to compete.

MRC_Hans · #7 (**permalink**) 1st July 2005, 06:24 AM

I am not offering to compete for this prize. I pasted the info for rest of the members in the sense, that was the offer which was offered to skeptics and they failed to register a single form.

Ahh, I see. The reason nobody applied is that it is an impossible proposition. To prove that hoemopathy is paranormal, you have two options:

1) Prove that homeopathy works. Since that is considered paranormal, this could win you the JREF prize (which, I'm sure you'll admit, is a little more attractive ).

2) Prove that no scientific explanation exists. This is impossible, since it is basically impossible to prove a negative.

If anybody among the skeptics are still willing to compete for this competition, I can request to WHCC officials to permit him/her on special ground.

Ok, if you cannot prove paranormality you can prove Badly shaved monkey avogadros formula which is not applicable on homeopathic solutions becuase thuja solution works even in cm. You are free to compete.

The Avogadro's limit is textbook knowledge. I suggest you familiarize yourself with advanced chemistry to ascertain this. What you will do with the prize after that is your own choice.

Hans

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #8 (**permalink**) 1st July 2005, 07:44 PM

QUOTE=MRC_Hans:
Ahh, I see. The reason nobody applied is that it is an impossible proposition. To prove that hoemopathy is paranormal, you have two options:

What I come to know that it was JREF members who first claimed that homeopathy is paranormal in nature. When it was asked to explain the meaning of paranormal, everybody talked differently, they all explained the different meanings. They failed to explain the exact meaning or defination to him (Dr. MAS). The conclusion was an event which cannot be explained under scientific reasoning. Ref: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=15 (Dr. MAS thread .... more then 11000 views but failed to explain the exact meaning of paranormal. )

This means that a person who knows the scientific laws which are involved in homeopathy just like proving of homeopathic medicines then homeopathy is not paranormal to him. And those who cannot understand this explanation, for them homeopathy is paranormal.

1) Prove that homeopathy works. Since that is considered paranormal, this could win you the JREF prize (which, I'm sure you'll admit, is a little more attractive ).

I am not interested in the prize as I said earlier. Yes, if are interested you can win one million ruppees.

2) Prove that no scientific explanation exists. This is impossible, since it is basically impossible to prove a negative.

This is possible!

If anybody among the skeptics are still willing to compete for this competition, I can request to WHCC officials to permit him/her on special ground.

Ok, if you cannot prove paranormality you can prove Badly shaved monkey avogadros formula which is not applicable on homeopathic solutions becuase thuja solution works even in cm. You are free to compete.

The Avogadro's limit is textbook knowledge. I suggest you familiarize yourself with advanced chemistry to ascertain this. What you will do with the prize after that is your own choice.

My opinion is also the same for you

Please comeout from the textbook based knowledge and do some practical application which you cannot do because in chemistry I am more qualified then you although I have no chemistry degree.

(we are both fool in chemistry subject having no authenticated certfication but discussing like a scholar of chemistry)

MRC_Hans · #9 (**permalink**) 4th July 2005, 07:50 AM

What I come to know that it was JREF members who first claimed that homeopathy is paranormal in nature. When it was asked to explain the meaning of paranormal, everybody talked differently, they all explained the different meanings. They failed to explain the exact meaning or defination to him (Dr. MAS). The conclusion was an event which cannot be explained under scientific reasoning. Ref: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=15 (Dr. MAS thread .... more then 11000 views but failed to explain the exact meaning of paranormal. )

The reason for the different explanations is, of course, that JREF members are different people. And none of them represent James Randi. As for the Randi prize, "paranormal" is whatever the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), as represented by Mr. James Randi deems to be paranormal. However, a good general definition is, as mentioned "not explainable within current science".

This means that a person who knows the scientific laws which are involved in homeopathy just like proving of homeopathic medicines then homeopathy is not paranormal to him. And those who cannot understand this explanation, for them homeopathy is paranormal.

No, that is not correct. Either a scientific explanation exists or it does not. Following MAS' claim that a scientific explanation exists, we al lasked him or others of his group to present that scientific explanation. Unfortunately to no avail. I have asked the same question here, and elsewhere, but nobody seems to be able to present it.

I am not interested in the prize as I said earlier.

Perhaps not, although I am always puzzled when people say they are not interested in a million dollars, but you should be interested in proving that the method you are using actually works.

2) Prove that no scientific explanation exists. This is impossible, since it is basically impossible to prove a negative.

This is possible!

Sorry, but you are wrong. You cannot prove that something does not exist. Of course there are special cases; I can easily prove that there is not a whale in my bathtub, but I cannot prove, for instance, that there are no invisible unicorns in the forests of Northern Sweden.

Please comeout from the textbook based knowledge and do some practical application which you cannot do because in chemistry I am more qualified then you although I have no chemistry degree. (we are both fool in chemistry subject having no authenticated certfication but discussing like a scholar of chemistry)

I think we have to cut to the chase in this Avogadro discussion, so I need you to answer this question: DO you claim that the effect of homeopathic remedies is based on chemical presense of the crude substance in high potency remedies?

Hans

Dr. Aamir Shahzad · #10 (**permalink**) 11th July 2005, 10:45 AM

(This post is based on latest commentary which is sent to many homeopaths who are the members of WHCC)

I think, our headache to discuss any more on this running issue is solved. Your companion Badly Shaved Monkey Ph.D in microbiology has admitted that Homeopathic potencies have physilogical action but below avogadros number limit.

If this is so, then you don't have any objection on those homeopaths who if claim that they have cured some diseases under the limit of avagodros.

If you accept this scientific fact then I can explain the working of homeopathic potencies in above avogadros limit.

This I have to post in each thread. This is very important.

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