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Old 17th May 2005, 08:32 AM
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Default Forget Avogadro's Number

There are a lot of discussions about the scientific proof of Homeopathy and in particular about the remedies that are highly diluted and therefore there cannot be any substance left. The laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, called Avogadro's number (6.0 x 10E23), corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024)

However there is no point to argue along these lines; and one will not be able to proof homeopathy with the scientific knowledge we have today. Homeopathy remedies works on the basic of information. Despite the fact that information is so essential to the functioning of any organism, and that people have put a lot of effort into the development of 'Information Science', 'Information Systems', 'Information Management', 'Information Theory', and the like, it may surprise to know that there is no commonly agreed definition. Moreover there is no physical model that explains the “matter of information” and many people do not know that we do not know what information is.

To illustrate how information has an impact on the mental, emotional and physical state of the body imagine that you see your child run over by a car. This will certainly create a shock state of your body and you might even collapse, a very strong physical impact. In this dramatic example there is NO exchange of material, not single atom is transferred but only information. This particular information has a very strong signature and different people have different sensitivity to this particular signature of information. Clearly all people will get a shock but the parents of that child are the most sensitive to that particular signature of information.

Along these lines it is the same with homeopathy remedies that also have different information signatures and different people have different sensitive to these signatures. Somehow the process of producing these remedies extracts the information of the substance and stores it in the remedies.

Therefore if you want to proof how diluted remedies works define a clear model that explain what information is, its properties and how it can be transformed and stored; and at the same time get the Nobel Price.
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Old 17th May 2005, 08:36 PM
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passkey has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default Not sure I want the NOBEL Price

But avogrados number is a simple physical fact . It assures people that there can be no arsenic , botulism , or radiation in a remedy . Sod all to do with proving anything.
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Old 18th May 2005, 08:42 AM
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There is always some controversy about this, but in my experience, most homeopaths acknowledge that there are no molecules (from the mother tincture) in high potency remedies. The position is mostly that there is some kind of information or energy imprint on the carrier. Unfortunately, this is of little help, from a scientific POV, because there is no known storage mechanism that could hold such complex information. The fact that different carriers are used (water, alcohol, lactose) makes it even more difficult to explain how complex information could be stored.

Hans
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Old 20th May 2005, 07:10 PM
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This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion
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Old 20th May 2005, 09:16 PM
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Default reply to MOSE

Dear MOSE
thanks for that reply,so verry well put!
This is why i dont bother going into these posts regards,proof of homeopathics or the science behind homeopathics........science has not reached to the point of explaining homeopathy,Homeopathy is energy,chi,prana,vital force and that is a subject of zero value to a 'scientist'.
It's a greater probabillity to discuss this with eaze with a Shaman verses a scientist.
Gina TYler
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Old 23rd May 2005, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mose
This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion
At the very least it should be possible to show that remedies actually has the claimed effect. After all, they are not given away for free. People are paying for it you know.

The problem is that in your own OPINION, remedies work but the facts, as gathered from properly conducted clinical trials, show that they does not have the claimed effect.

Your example with the sun is quite irrelevant. Show that remedies work (that the sun shines), after that we can figure out how it works.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mose
This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion
Funny:

You start by confirming my statement that there is no scientific explanation.

Then you state your opinion that homeopathy works anyway.

Then you tell ME to stick to facts and refrain from stating MY opinion.

What is wrong with that picture?

Hans
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Old 23rd May 2005, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mose
To illustrate how information has an impact on the mental, emotional and physical state of the body imagine that you see your child run over by a car. This will certainly create a shock state of your body and you might even collapse, a very strong physical impact. In this dramatic example there is NO exchange of material, not single atom is transferred but only information. This particular information has a very strong signature and different people have different sensitivity to this particular signature of information. Clearly all people will get a shock but the parents of that child are the most sensitive to that particular signature of information.
And you're saying that you have no idea about how the information is transfered to your brain and how it combines with previous knowledge to produce a physiological effect? Just because you don't know doesn't mean that it is not known.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 06:18 PM
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Ok Jocce then please explain with the scientific knowledge we have today this process. What is transferred, how is it transferred, how is it received and how is the reaction generated.

The reason for this post is that many people claims that remedies does not work because there are no substance in them and this is correct there is no substance from a material point of view. From your reply you also seems to indicate that there needs not to be any exchange of substance to generate a reaction.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 09:41 PM
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In your example the information consist of photons hitting your retina in a specific pattern. What exacly is the information consisting of in homeopathic remedies?

The interesting thing with homeopaths is that they, to use your example, look at the car accident and see a happy child continue to play.
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