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Old 21st August 2003, 03:39 PM
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Timokay
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Hans: But the model already exists (didn't I already post this? Oh, never mind..) Does Homeopathy have a remedy for hypertension? Mild hypertension is relatively harmless unless persisting for years, so there is no ethical problem. Hypertension is also objectively measurable. Make a double-blind placebo-controlled (DBPC) test on that.

Tim: The Homeopath would have to "take the case" to establish the underlying problem. Specific symptoms are never treated individually...they resolve together with all the other symptoms associated with this disease state.

Hans: Also, you claim that Homeopathic drugs taken on their own (by a healthy person, I assume) produce symptoms. This is even easier to test.

Yes, it doesn't mean they have any curative effects, just that they do produce symptoms. This test would be the easiest of all.

Hans: I know you do not like the DBPC principle and think it superflouos but this is the kind of test that will convince the opposition, so why not? What can you loose?

Tim: I have no objection to this at all. So, 40 healthy people given Bryonia 6c or Blanks...fully DBPC.

Tim: Do you know if there is a simple "in vitro" test for the initiation/activation of the immune response - just the triggering of it?
Could test Homeopathic solutions for positive activation. ("Dendritic cells and T-cells interact to initiate an immune response".)

Hans: But this is not needed. Once you show THAT it works, we can start figuring out WHY it works.

THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT STATEMENT - THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE I HAVE SEEN.

Hans: "I'm not sure what you mean. There exists all sorts of relationships between diseases. The most common is when one disease weakens the immune system and opens the way for opportunistic infections."

Tim: What I mean is the cascading processes during disease. E.g., Do the cytokines produced in response to disease agent 1 have specificity in their actions to disease 1, and act completely independently from the cytokines produced by simultaneous disease 2? (Do all the cytokines know which disease they belong to?)

Tim: Is there no conflict whatsoever between duplicate cells/molecules and activities of these diseases, going on in the lymphatic/blood systems, thymus, bone marrow, etc.?

Tim: I already said there is. The immune system is very selective, so unless it is overloaded (which also happens, as I mentioned), it can deal with several types of infections at the same timel like you mentioned, and usually does: Like you also mentioned yourself, our system routinely fights down infections without us even knowing, this is happening more or less constantly.

Hans: Other effects overlap. Fever, for example, if infection A gives you a high fever, it will also affect infection B. Whether the combination gives you a higher temperature, I don't know.

Tim: Hahnemann, thru' tireless experimentation, found that one disease dominates and presents its symptoms. I know you have answered that, but Hahhnemann said the symptoms of the second disease do not express themselves at all while disease 1 is processed.

Hans: Obviously, this is a difficult realm to experiment in, unless you want to induce a lot of diseases in test subjects. I will have to say that, despite his hard work, his observations are contradicted by present-day observations.

Hans: "However, this makes their reluctance to test for efficiacy even more incomprehensible."

Tim: Are they reluctant? Who Scientifically tests something?

Hans: According to Hahnemannian, Homeopaths sit and wait for science to test it, but this may be wrong. I know of some tests, none of which yielded positive results.
HERE HERE
Hans: "Turn that upside down: Scientist are not trained in Homeopathic methods. Anyhow it does not require training. You can get somebody with scientific training to design the test."

CATCH 22.

And avoiding such catches is one reason for the rule: You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

Hans: "Most prefer a shot of antibiotics, though. Earlier doctors used mercury, but the side-effects were bad. Not as bad as the disease, though."

One dose of Homeopathic mercury is 100% effective and causes no side-effects.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe this.

This applies to uncomplicated cases of syphilis.
No comment on the following post?

Which was why people died of syphilis, or bore the effects of the mercury.

Not the ones treated with Homeopathy.

Tim

[ 21. August 2003, 17:17: Message edited by: Timokay ]
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Old 1st October 2003, 09:28 AM
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OK, so how are the plans on the test proceding?

Hans
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