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Old 5th January 2005, 01:52 PM
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Prof. Stuart Sutherland says that in "surveys in Britain and America show that only about 25% of scientists are prepared to provide their original data when requested. Unless there is something to hide there is no reason for such refusal. One can only conclude that scientific fraud is extremely widespread."

German Scientist “Faked cancer research”
German university investigators are on the verge of exposing a "scientific Chernobyl" involving scores of bogus Scientific papers they 'claim were fraudulently published by a cancer research professor who duped the international community for 15 years.
The case centers on the German professor FriedheIm Herrmann, who until two years ago was a leading cancer research specialist at the universities of Mainz, Freiburg and Ulm ' and the Max Delbruck institute for molecular medicine in Berlin. A special task force at Wurzburg University, which has been examining Dr. Herrmann’s work for 18 months, says it has evidence that the results of at least 80 of his published cancer research tests were faked.
The extent of the fraud is far greater than we expected” said Roland Houben a taskforce member.” initially we assumed that there were 47 doctored, but now we suspect that at least 80 were faked.'
The taskforce leader, Professor Ulf Rapp, said, "They developed an aversion to using
Genuine data."
Dr Herrmann, who gave up research in 1977 when suspicions were raised and now works as a, general practitioner, has refused to talk to the Wurzburg team was not available for comment yesterday.
In an interview with the German Magazine Focus earlier this year, he said he was not aware that his published studies had been faked. He blamed the fraud on co-authors and said he should have intervened. It is a drama. My main calling is not research. I was and still am a doctor," he said.
'The German scientific cases "the Chernobyl of science" Many of the dubious Papers were published in respected U.S. and European journals. Dr; Houben said that although many had been withdrawn, It was impossible to gauge their impact . Faking scientific research is a criminal offence under, German law.

Guardian 8-11-99

Mycoplasma Pneumoniae is neither virus nor bacteria !!! surprise , surprise . Scientists have already pointed out that these organisms are madly swapping bits of genetic material in order to survive , under the pressure of indiscriminate drug therapy. Mutation is the order of the day and it is high time that new drugs had to prove not only that they don't harm individual humans But also that they do not exert evolutionary pressure on organisms to mutate and thus damage both the race of humanity and its environment, * Glaxo have this new wonder drug -- zanamavir -- which is part of a new generation of anti influenza "neuraminidase inhibitors , which interfere with the life cycle of the virus --" . What mutational pressure will this apply to a fairly simple virus and , perhaps , turn it into a pandemic killer ?. Glaxo expect to make millions -- possibly billions from this product and one can see that their shareholders need it -- but do we as a race need it?? .**********

************** How do you rate the I.Q. of a person who doesn't know the difference between HRT [ hormone replacement therapy] Pills and birth control pills. Pretty untechnical you might feel. But Doctor Stephen Bourne prescribed HRT to a young woman who asked for the Birth Pill. She became pregnant , had an abortion and still no one realised what the problem was until a year after she refused a second abortion . Dr Bourne admitted " I acted very foolishly. I thought they are bound to put two & two together. I deluded myself very foolishly that by Tippexing out I could pretend I hadn't done it " In what kind of ' Alice in wonderland/virtual reality ' do these people live. Is this where spin doctors have brought us ? . Another 'unreality ' /'it never really happened ' story goes back to 1979. when the U.S Air Force medical records were falsified . The cancer inducing and genetic defect creation leading to birth defects of Agent Orange as it affected 1,000 military personnel , were down played and thousands of Vietnam Vets " have not been compensated because of the slanted conclusions " said R Albanese one of the scientists who designed the study. His conscience made him give up the facts [ about 20 years too late ] .

Feelings DO affect health. Scientists measured the effects of pleasant and unpleasant experience on antibody immunoglobins [sIAgA] Prof. Warburton of Reading University measured levels after pleasant experience and found that in all cases increases occurred. Some as high as 60% after 3 hours . The body is NOT just a fleshly mechanism. ************* Also if you are unhappy , or have been given immunosuppressants - vaccines or antibiotics [ which may suppress symptoms - but not cure] then the very water you drink may undermine your health. Most unboiled tap water contains cryptosporidium which may give rise to gastro enteritis or symptoms like irritable bowel syndrome. So in theory you could get a flu jab to protect you and because it lowers your immune system - end up with irritable bowel syndrome, I think I'd take my chance with flu !. ************

Vaccination causes illness !! At the moment only accepted in dogs !! A survey of 4,000 dogs being given annual vaccines found higher than normal levels of allergic reactions , epilepsy , brain damage and distemper. Of the dogs in the survey over 66% became ill within 3 months of injection. Might this not also apply to children. But will anyone do a survey ?, I doubt it.

ADR [ adverse drug reaction ] , new research indicates that up to 20,000 deaths per year may be due to adverse drug reaction and 5% of all hospital admissions are due to ADR. How much money would the NHS save if it did not give drugs to people and kill them , also how much would be saved in hospital treatment of those who survive. In the USA - ADR is the fourth leading cause of death -- after heart disease , cancer and stroke.

Bryan Atkinson redecorated his house to ensure his wife's comfort , then arranged his own funeral . He was at the end of 22 treatments for terminal cancer - a tumor the "size of an orange " . He was then told that he did not have cancer , but an inflamed bowel. Somewhat miffed he now intends to sue . The lesson from this is that if you've had cancer [ or anything else ] diagnosed - don't give up hope !!!.

by Dr K. Harvey , Director of Microbiology at the Royal Melbourne Hospital that " antibiotics are the refuge of the diagnostically destitute " . He made this statement as MRSA was sweeping through his hospital and BEFORE MRSA reached the U.K. !!. Now the the pharmaceutical giants such as Glaxo , Bayer , SKB etc are very unhappy about low sales for a product that makes a fortune for them. Recently in Scandinavia they tried to get all teenagers tested and treated for Chlamydia using antibiotics. We took this approach to gonococcus in the 60's -- we would wipe out gonorrhea --- the result ?? -- the WHO recently declared gonorrhea OUT OF CONTROL. MRSA was a harmless throat infection [ staphlococcus ] - until indiscriminate use of antibiotics turned it into a monster. Now Azithromycin is being touted as a cure for clogged arteries - which MIGHT be caused by Chlamydia Pneumoniae . It does seem that the standard of scientific truth is now available to the highest bidder.

Drug companies driven by the ' quick buck ' motive have synthesized insulin. Trouble with the product has been played down . Eli Lilly & Novo Nordisk deny any possibility that their drug could be responsible for problems. 3,000 letters of complaint have been sent to the British Diabetic Association , listing coma without warning, moody, confused, forgetful , aggressive results after the switch from animal to synthetic insulin. Only when a big uproar happens do drug companies take any notice . Did they also ignore these problems when the original research was done. Is this another case of buying the 'scientific ' results you want? .

Doctors not only accept only rules that suit them - they also make their own up as they go along !!!. An inquiry is under way at North Staffordshire hospital into 128 cases of babies treated . Death was the lot of 28 , with a further 15 suffering permanent injury. All were used to test a new ventilator for premature babies. Consent forms signed by parents were described as misleading , hoodwinking and duping. The local MP said that " parents did not properly understand what was going on , and this needs looking at ." Was profit a cause of death ??.

The GM foods scandal has thrown up some interesting views of " science" . Prof. Chrispeels " These experiments could be interpreted in different ways " [ ? depending on who is paying for the work ?. ] . The embyologist L. Wolpert argued that " the practice of science was unnatural " and that scientific ideas often seemed to run against common sense . " Some sociologists argue that science is something humans invented and therefore has no more validity than any other belief system " . " Some scientists have been known to fake their findings , and some show an all-too-human tendency to dismiss the bad outcomes and highlight only the good results ." " Scientists are humans ; they make mistakes , cling to favorite ideas , hold loyalties AND SEE WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE !!!. As far as I can see that just about sums up science ,

. Enterovirus are smart little bugs. Found not only in athletic adults who drop dead of LVD [ left ventricular disease ] but also in respiratory tracts , enterovirus 71 is also found in meningitis and encephalitis . It is also described as a " flu-like virus " , shape shifters have nothing on the viral mutations ! .

A study in the Lancet shows that young children who go to pre school nurseries and get common infections [coughs, colds, 'flu & diarrhea] develop better and stronger immune systems. Amazing how, after the expenditure of much time and money, science struggles to arrive at the same conclusion as common sense.

Two United States sailors have been discharged from the U.S. Navy. The reason for discharge ? - - they refused doses of the ANTHRAX vaccine. WHY ? - because that was the vaccine involved in the DESERT WAR SYNDROME that has crippled so many U.S and U.K service men. The dangers of vaccination has finally penetrated to the conscious mind of the general populace - lets hope the pharmaceutical giants take note and stop pushing this damaging practice on the rest of us!.
81 cases mismatched blood due to human error there were 8 cases of infection being transmitted - one patient died of malaria , another caught AIDS and other got various types of Hepatitis. TB is on the rampage - between 2 & 3 MILLION die each year , according to A Zumla of UMC London. TB was around in dinosaur times - must have a good survival mechanism - antibiotics only hone its skills!!.
A London conference with the BMJ found that nearly all of the 130 editors had found fabrication , falsification or plagiarism in studies sent to them for publication. The US Office of Scientific Integrity found that 30% of allegations were found proved. In July John Anderton Secretary of Royal College of Physicians was struck off for 'faking ' research data. In May Consultant Cardiologist P. Nixon admitted deliberate errors in papers he published and accepted that he would cease to practice. Dec '97 8,000 USA were injected with unlicensed vaccines prior to going to the Gulf War. A meeting at the army biological defence research station Maryland, doctors told the committee that test results on animals were promising but they could not be sure the vaccines would work or that it would be safe to vaccinate troops on the move.
A London conference with the BMJ found that nearly all of the 130 editors had found fabrication , falsification or plagiarism in studies sent to them for publication. The US Office of Scientific Integrity found that 30% of allegations were found proved. In July John Anderton Secretary of Royal College of Physicians was struck off for 'faking ' research data. In May Consultant Cardiologist P. Nixon admitted deliberate errors in papers he published and accepted that he would cease to practice. Dec '97 8,000 USA were injected with unlicensed vaccines prior to going to the Gulf War. A meeting at the army biological defence research station Maryland, doctors told the committee that test results on animals were promising but they could not be sure the vaccines would work or that it would be safe to vaccinate troops on the move.
When results of genuine research do not fit the desired profile the negative effects are omitted by the drug company. Dr. Trevor Stammers seemed to have shown that fish oil could relieve osteoarthritis and Seven Seas paid for the research and were keen to have the results published in the Lancet. His later negative results were published but were completely omitted from the literature sent to GPs. Fisons in Cheshire were stated by the American FDA report to be conducting a "fraudulent analytical procedure " in testing asthma aerosols. One patient died after being injected with "IMFERON" and the batch that was more toxic than normal provoked allergic reactions in 3 pregnant women. An eye product was taken off the market because production standards did not meet standards of sterility.
In 1996 2 doctors were struck off for fraudulent drug trial and the 'Lancet' admitted that one in 250 scientific papers contained fraudulent data. In March 1996 Dr. Fairhurst reported for falsifying drug records, forging patients signatures and using patients as guinea pigs in drug trials without their consent. In pursuit of profit the following shows that only public outcry after many deaths can cause the withdrawal of profitable drugs. In the 10 yrs from 1983 there have been a total death roll of over 1,700 people and recorded drug injury to over 30,000 people as below . What should be emphasised is that in each and every instance a drug company researched the product , a Medical Scientists body approved the results and a Doctor prescribed the substance.

HALCION the "better" sleeping pill has the side effect of turning some people into homicidal maniacs. When M/s Grundberg of Utah murdered her 83 yr old mother by firing 8 bullets into her head the pharmaceutical company Upjohn settled out of court for some millions of dollars to avoid adverse publicity depressing sales of 285 million dollars . But a Mrs Wancasser of Missouri killed her two sons and committed suicide ; an ex policeman William Freedman killed his best friend. All after being prescribed a 'better' sleeping pill. Human growth hormone extracted from pituitary glands was used to from 1959-85 to treat slow growth undersized children. Signs pointing to the bad effects of the treatment were ignored in the 70's. It can give rise to CREUTZFELD-JAKOB disease. 7 of the 1,900 patients have died of CJD and all are at risk. In Aug. 1990 Terry Newman had problems with his balance. 16 weeks later he had rapidly deteriorated into a human vegetable and died. He was 20 yrs old and had been treated with the growth hormone when young. It should be noted that CJD is a part of the phenomenology of AIDS and ARC and that the hormonal reactions of the body and are very poorly understood. They act through the lymph and blood systems both of which are deeply implicated in all symptoms of AIDS. It is therefore highly probable that hormonal treatments of all kinds can affect the immune system.
. Dr. K. Harvey , Director of Microbiology at the Royal Melbourne Hospital said " We may look back on the antibiotic era as an era where the bugs proved smarter than the scientist. BROAD SPECTRUM ANTIBIOTICS ARE THE REFUGE OF THE DIAGNOSTICALLY DESTITUTE." Candida (thrush) has been shown to take up seven different configurations when challenged by various antibiotics-it may be effectively 'antibiotic-proof'. Tuberculosis (which has been shown to affect dinosaur bones ) is returning in new and more dangerous forms.
A leading surgeon, Mr. R Winston, head of an infertility clinic carried out a study of 108 patients with tubal damage. 79 had previous pelvic surgery which "in some cases was not necessary". He also stated that "the most intractable problem remains IAGROGENIC (disease caused by doctors). 65% have had previous surgery and this is now a major cause of avoidable damage. Half of these women have such damage that further surgery is pointless". On the 13th July 1995 surgeon Nicholas Siddle, consultant at UCH, was found guilty by the GMC on 7 charges of injuring women patients, 5 by 'keyhole' 2 by normal surgery- "inflicting damage variously to bowels, ureters & bladders." In early July 1995 Surgeon John Studd , Council Member of the Royal College of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists, paid 32,500 pounds to Mrs. J Bartley. He had removed her ovaries without authorisation and increased the likelihood of an early menopause. When questioned Mr. Studd asserted that endometriosis was present. But examination of tissue showed that assertion to be incorrect. In July 1995 it was revealed that "At least 11 deaths have been caused by intravenous syringe pumps which have overdosed patients with the drugs they had been prescribed." Two doctors were convicted of manslaughter when a 16 yr old was given a spinal injection of the wrong drug and died. Drs M. Prentice and B. Sullman were 25 & 27. A motor cycle crash victim was left paraplegic after a misdiagnosed spinal injury was taken as a mild head injury, the doctor tried to "cover up" by altering medical notes. The claimant was awarded 435,000 pounds. In Sept. 1995 a woman sued Salford Hope Hospital when surgeons operated on her mouth when they should have been attending to her knee.
Dr. Crockett was found guilty by the GMC of trading in kidney transplants and making large profits from the transactions. In Argentine the records of some 200 people have been investigated under suspicion that some or all were killed in hospital and their organs sold world wide for transplant services. "Only a tiny minority of consultants are 'ripping off' the NHS " said Dr. McFarlane a consultant obstetrician. As these people can legitimately earn in excess of £135,000 per yr one feels that money rather than compassion must motivate them
18 out of 24 members of the Governments Medicines Commission which is responsible for monitoring the pharmaceutical industry receive some form of financial favour from the drug companies. Four multinational drug companies have been reprimanded for entertaining doctors with golf ,motor racing, boating and skiing trips in an effort to boost drug sales. A television producer said that the facts suggested that this abuse was widespread.
In Sheffield in 1985 some 200 doctors were asked to return more than 100,000 pounds fraudulently claimed for giving contraceptive advice to non existent patients. In one year the Medical Defence Union paid out 25,800,000 pounds in settlement of claims . In one a GP over prescribed malaria tablets by 700% causing stomach pains, vomiting, vertigo and impaired vision - all handicaps one could do without on a holiday. The development of drugs is an expensive business - and an illogical one. Instanced by the fact that a diuretic synthesised from dandelion depletes the potassium reserves of the body - but the dandelion is rich in potassium. However the trade of multinational drug companies is measured in billions of dollars. It is small wonder then that the pressure generated by this need to produce and sell for profit means that corners are cut , ethics go out of the window on test results and dubious methods are used to pressure GP's. Scientific results are "edited " to conform to the regulations and standards set by the Federal Drugs Admin and the UK Medicines Control Agency etc. Prof. Stuart Sutherland says that in "surveys in Britain and America show that only about 25% of scientists are prepared to provide their original data when requested. Unless there is something to hide there is no reason for such refusal. One can only conclude that scientific fraud is extremely widespread."
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Old 5th January 2005, 07:33 PM
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outstanding compilation.

i am a basically naive and trusting soul, believe it or not, and even though i know fraud is out there, even rampant, don't usually consider it a target in my arguments. after all, fraud can affect all practices, all methodologies, and from a purely heuristic pov, is 'irrelevant' to the merits of practices, though i realize that's kind of a funny thing to say, but i hope you get my drift.

i especially liked the snippet about mutation. this is an interesting example of the uncontrolled, often unacknowledged, unseen, or unanticipated effects in research that i've been talking about ... though, to be sure, a rather more esoteric and even ominous example than the more mundane problems i've usually focussed on, such as safety hazards in blinded trials, or confounding effects of antidotes on outcomes in proving trials.

as they said in jurassic park, 'life will find a way.' i am amazed - to be polite about it - at some of our self-proclaimed apostles of the 'scientific' spirit, and their blithe, if at the same time snarling reassurances that there are 'safeguards' in place in their research.

aaanyway, passkey, plaudits.

bach
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Old 6th January 2005, 07:49 PM
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passkey

thanks for that wonderfull post. i am in agreement with you .
I had no interest in the world of disease,medicine,illness untill i witnessed my self what homeopathy can do that allopathy cannot.
it does not matter what is proven to those in disbelief,it is a nonstop useless argument.It is like trying to discuss politics or religion.
Better to help those in need,those that are suffering in pain,the ill. Most cannot make sense of how amazing homeopathy truly is.
To win over the minds of science does not help,science is bases on research ,research is funded by drug corporations,drug corp. are funded by government,it all goes back to who can make the most money off the newest drug,billions are poured into journals,research,labs,torturous expieriments on animals....etc.Homeopaths in general do not make much money as allopaths do,there is a different motive for using homeopathy,it actually does work,and actually does heal without adverse effects.
gina tyler
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Old 12th January 2005, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwv11
i am amazed - to be polite about it - at some of our self-proclaimed apostles of the 'scientific' spirit, and their blithe, if at the same time snarling reassurances that there are 'safeguards' in place in their research.

bach
? I'm amazed that you're amazed. Because someone pointed out some examples of fraudulent "allopathic" doctors/etc, that invalidates "allopathy" on the whole? What you don't think there are any fraudulent homeopathic practitioners out there?
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Old 13th January 2005, 07:19 AM
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To take it the humorous way, the position of Back and many others in this business is something like this:

If there can be shown one bad thing about allopathy, it invalidates allopathy.

If there can be shown one good thing about homeopathy, it vindicates homeopathy.

....It is called observation bias .

Hans
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Old 13th January 2005, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans
To take it the humorous way, the position of Back and many others in this business is something like this:

If there can be shown one bad thing about allopathy, it invalidates allopathy.

If there can be shown one good thing about homeopathy, it vindicates homeopathy.

....It is called observation bias .

Hans
Randiland tries to highlight every single negative news about homeopathy, not so many positive ones. They always try to contradict any good/positive news about homeopathy & other alt. systems to their level best meaninglessly, ignoring all positive experiances & observations of mass......people. Is it not called as observation bias?

Quote:
ADR [ adverse drug reaction ] , new research indicates that up to 20,000 deaths per year may be due to adverse drug reaction and 5% of all hospital admissions are due to ADR. How much money would the NHS save if it did not give drugs to people and kill them , also how much would be saved in hospital treatment of those who survive. In the USA - ADR is the fourth leading cause of death -- after heart disease , cancer and stroke.
Passkey, good reaction to actions. We can find many such adversities daily & can highlight here & there--provided we make our job only to point out/highlight such things. But being spritual, believer, goodside, positive, natural....based, we ignore such dirty mal-practices.

Mr.Hans,

In view of involvement of harsh chemicals with posibilities of strong adversities---fraud in these & other non-harsh chemecal based healing substances can mean something differant. So these are just incomparable examples.
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Old 13th January 2005, 09:13 AM
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The people at Randiland are very choosy in registering people.So far I tried twice,and failed.I get registered with the same data on all other forums,but they say,the data is insufficient.

This itself shows,how partial they are.They don't want too many members,who they know are ardent supporters of homeopathy,to be in their premises,as they know,all their arguments will be countered effectively,by one or the other,if enough people are there.

Are we doing a mistake,in spending our energies in answering people like,Hans and Bigred.They will never get convinced.We don't have to convince the others who come here,as they normally come here with faith in homeopathy.

The way the Randiland is ignoring us,we should ignore these people,and concentrate our energies in promoting homeopathy to the needy millions.

Murthy
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Old 13th January 2005, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinimurthy
The people at Randiland are very choosy in registering people.So far I tried twice,and failed.I get registered with the same data on all other forums,but they say,the data is insufficient.
Sorry, that you failed, people with different views are always welcome, after all discussing all among ourselve ges boring with the time.

I'm just comparing registration of otherhealth and Randiland, difference is that they require state, country and name, while otherhealth require place of living and job. Cannot tell you why they want name and so on, but what error/ response did you get, when trying to register?

I will try to ask Randiland admins, maybe they still have info about someone trying to register as "gavinimurthy". Or didi you use a different name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinimurthy

This itself shows,how partial they are.They don't want too many members,who they know are ardent supporters of homeopathy,to be in their premises,as they know,all their arguments will be countered effectively,by one or the other,if enough people are there.

Murthy
I do not know about Randiland keeping possible members out because of their opinions, but members are pretty free to say anything they like, as long as its nothing perverse or very insulting.
E.g. there is someone named "Peter Morris", who tried to convince others that Randi is a liar and the challenge is a fraud and that his goal and that of others should be to discredit Randi and JREF as much as possible.
I can think of little things more adverse, than posting on a forum, that the organization/people who created and manage the forum are a bunch of liars, so if you are right he should get banned pretty quickly. It's nearly the same as if someone would try to convince people at hpathy that Dr.B is a liar and cheats with his patient data.
But he did not get banned and is still posting, so maybe you are wrong, that JREF excludes people because of their opinion.

Nonetheless i'll try to check why your registration at Randiland failed.

Carn
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Old 13th January 2005, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwv11
outstanding compilation.

i am a basically naive and trusting soul, believe it or not, and even though i know fraud is out there, even rampant, don't usually consider it a target in my arguments. after all, fraud can affect all practices, all methodologies, and from a purely heuristic pov, is 'irrelevant' to the merits of practices, though i realize that's kind of a funny thing to say, but i hope you get my drift.

i especially liked the snippet about mutation. this is an interesting example of the uncontrolled, often unacknowledged, unseen, or unanticipated effects in research that i've been talking about ... though, to be sure, a rather more esoteric and even ominous example than the more mundane problems i've usually focussed on, such as safety hazards in blinded trials, or confounding effects of antidotes on outcomes in proving trials.

as they said in jurassic park, 'life will find a way.' i am amazed - to be polite about it - at some of our self-proclaimed apostles of the 'scientific' spirit, and their blithe, if at the same time snarling reassurances that there are 'safeguards' in place in their research.

aaanyway, passkey, plaudits.

bach
well, carrying on in the humorous - errr, sarcastic - tone of hans, i am amazed, red, that you are amazed, that i dismissed the whole of allopathy on the basis of a post concerning a few fraudulent practices. i think it might help if you re-read my post, which for your convenience i have reproduced above.

you will note:

i never said anything about discounting the whole of allopathy;

i specifically stated that we should not judge any form of medical practice on the basis of stories concerning fraud, as fraud is something that can affect all practices, all methodologies;

further, the post in question was clearly and pointedly directed at risks involved in the pursuit of medical research, risks that, when pressed, even hans acknowledged exist;

and, finally, my point was concerning the "blithe" reassurances we get from skeptics, that "safeguards" are in place in research studies to protect against error - i.e., i am not reassured by your blithe reassurances, because there are too many headlines, and i think the risks are greater than you acknowledge.

i disagree with hans' cost-benefit analysis, about research and also about allopathic practice in general, and i would prefer a more frank consideration of actual risks (i.e., apart from fraudulent practices) than we usually get. in fact, we don't usually get any discussion of the problem except when we reference one of the endless series of headlines that seem to follow you guys around.

so why not amaze me, red, and demonstrate an ability to quote accurately.

btw, hans, i'm also 'amazed' that you missed red's misattributions and misinterpretations - not.


bach
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Old 13th January 2005, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinimurthy
Are we doing a mistake,in spending our energies in answering people like,Hans and Bigred.They will never get convinced.We don't have to convince the others who come here,as they normally come here with faith in homeopathy.

The way the Randiland is ignoring us,we should ignore these people,and concentrate our energies in promoting homeopathy to the needy millions.

Murthy
Time out, back up the truck a sec.....

1. Saying I will "never get convinced" may or may not be true, but it's hardly a given. Give me some proof that homeopathic methods work in a consistent, reliable way, and I will be convinced. So far I've seen precious little, if any....just people who say it worked for them....which is well and fine but hardly "proof."

2. I found this site and it is in no small part because I am curious and have not closed the door on homeopathy that I am still here, listening and reading and trying to get my arms around it. But - to date at least - the more I read, the more I lean to the likelihood that any successes achieved are a warm fuzzy placebo effect and that homeopathic's underlying logic or explanations or how it is supposed to work is full of more holes than a chunk o swiss cheese. But "the day is yet young" as the saying goes, so perhaps I will read something that stems the tide, or even sways me back. We shall see. Hopefully there's something better than "hey the less you have of a substance, the more it will help you!"

3. As I've already said many times in short time I've been here (but what the hey once more.....): if you find ANY method of making yourself feel better with no side effects (at least not as bad or worse than the original problem) and it has proven to work consistently and reliably, I don't care if it's "regular" medicine, homeopathy, a placebo effect, acupuncture, kama sutra, or a rain dance. Bottom line is that it works for you, go with it. Just don't kid yourself about whether it really works or not. This leads me into my next point....

4. My concern w/this is people who believe in it and use it mostly or entirely - even at the exclusion of proven "allopathy" - because they WANT it to work and WANT to believe in it, REGARDLES of it's effectiveness - or lack thereof - because of fear/distrust of "regular" doctors and medicine, and/or because this "all-natural" concept gives them a nice warm fuzzy. This is sad if not outright dangerous. Wanting something to be so doesn't make it so. Never be so afraid of the truth that you're afraid to face it. And no, I make no claims to having the inside track there. As I say, I'm still researching. And of course "regular" medicine doesn't have all the answers and it not perfect. That hardly invalidates the whole thing. It goes back to what hans said about finding one bad thing making it all bad or one good thing making homeopathy all good. It's absurd.

5. "However".....while I'm not familiar with "randiland" or whatever, if they are in fact automatically biased against homeopathy without cause, I'll pass. Saying "homeopathy doesn't work because I don't like the idea and I don't want it to" - ie not backing it up with the "why" - is also foolish and pointless.

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The Neem Tree MJM Homeopathy Discussion 10 27th March 2001 09:56 PM


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