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Old 4th January 2005, 11:15 AM
Gaby Rottler
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Default Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?

Dear all,

FYI:
Article about the importance of homeopathy in veterinary practice:

30 November 2004
Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?
F.J. van Sluijs

http://www.vetscite.org/

Best,

Gaby

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Germany
rottler@curantur.de

http://www.curantur.de
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Old 4th January 2005, 08:09 PM
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Default Science is bunk

To paraphrase an old saying by Henry Ford. It has been shown on numerous occasions that money will buy the "right" results for the pharmaceutcal companies

So what needs to be done ?. In the '40's & '50's with naive optimism it was thought that science had the answer to everything. With the huge success of antibiotics it was assumed that we could control Nature and push it to one side. That we knew better and could intervene in the body's workings to achieve the desired ends. Now it is realized that our interventions have done more harm than good. We set out to cure gonorrhea and end up with monstrous viral infections as the virus fight back. We also assist in the debasement of the immune system - leading to all types of immuno deficiency problems from asthma to AIDS.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bedrock of 'science' is repeatability. If X does procedure Y in New York , then when Z follows that procedure in Melbourne or Rio , the results will be exactly the same . If this is not so then it is not 'science' !!. For the benefit of scientists lets say that , where human beings are concerned, this paradigm is useless. Extreme reaction to food/pollens/vaccines show that the spectrum of human variation is widening rapidly. What is really happening ?. It is now established that bacteria, virus , organisms of all kinds - THAT ARE GENETICALLY BASED are swapping bits of dna in order to change shape and be better able to meet the challenge of antibiotic or vaccine. The implication of this is that our external environment is an ever changing area that operates by the laws of chaos. It has no truck with fixed parameters [ without which science cannot operate ] the result being that the medical sciences have no answers to the problems confronting them - their paradigm is bankrupt!!.
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Old 4th January 2005, 08:23 PM
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Another comprehensive book on the theme was published by Haug/ Germany:
E. Fraentzki
Die Idee der Wissenschaft bei Samuel Hahnemann
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Old 5th January 2005, 03:13 AM
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I think homeopathy/biochemic effectiveness can only be justified scientifically by maintaining patients response datas & long term patho-physiological changes(by tests) of patient taking these remedies exculusively.
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Old 5th January 2005, 12:50 PM
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Default Science is fraudulent

The question I ask KV is -"Can you trust science?.


German Scientist “Faked cancer research”
German university investigators are on the verge of exposing a "scientific Chernobyl" involving scores of bogus Scientific papers they 'claim were fraudulently published by a cancer research professor who duped the international community for 15 years.
The case centers on the German professor FriedheIm Herrmann, who until two years ago was a leading cancer research specialist at the universities of Mainz, Freiburg and Ulm ' and the Max Delbruck institute for molecular medicine in Berlin. A special task force at Wurzburg University, which has been examining Dr. Herrmann’s work for 18 months, says it has evidence that the results of at least 80 of his published cancer research tests were faked.
The extent of the fraud is far greater than we expected” said Roland Houben a taskforce member.” initially we assumed that there were 47 doctored, but now we suspect that at least 80 were faked.'
The taskforce leader, Professor Ulf Rapp, said, "They developed an aversion to using
Genuine data."
Dr Herrmann, who gave up research in 1977 when suspicions were raised and now works as a, general practitioner, has refused to talk to the Wurzburg team was not available for comment yesterday.
In an interview with the German Magazine Focus earlier this year, he said he was not aware that his published studies had been faked. He blamed the fraud on co-authors and said he should have intervened. It is a drama. My main calling is not research. I was and still am a doctor," he said.
'The German scientific cases "the Chernobyl of science" Many of the dubious Papers were published in respected U.S. and European journals. Dr; Houben said that although many had been withdrawn, It was impossible to gauge their impact . Faking scientific research is a criminal offence under, German law.

Guardian 8-11-99
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Old 5th January 2005, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passkey
The question I ask KV is -"Can you trust science?.
passkey, this is really a good question. I think, science is still very much unclear in itself. If we read Merk's Manuual or other medical information referances, we can find so many concepts & conditions are still unclear, not/can't yet known.....etc. On these unclear concepts & conditions, people probably, may also be geting somewhat unclear treatments. But since, current/modern environment is fancy towards it, we can try explaining something whatever is possible in its language to protect & encourage good systems. Moreover,Since so many money & manpower is invested & being ivested in these modern systems, we can also hope of getting something which is really good. We should not be pre-concieved with the idea that everything can be good or bad in any system but should accept that something can be good in every system which we should try to take & accept that. These are just my views.
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Old 6th January 2005, 12:45 AM
BRIAN
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Default Fw: Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?

Forwarded by BRIAN <brc1717@comcast.net>
----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
From: "Gaby Rottler" <rottler@curantur.de>

Dear all,

FYI:
Article about the importance of homeopathy in veterinary practice:

30 November 2004
Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?
F.J. van Sluijs

http://www.vetscite.org/

Best,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Gaby,

Thanks for passing this link along!
Here's what I wrote to the editors:

Dear Sirs:

Your recent review of the science needs to leave behind the old Avogadro
Number critique regarding dilution..... it's outdated and inapplicable
science.

The following was published in last winter's edition of Simillimum
(American) and earlier (in part) in Homeopathy Today (British).

http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/homeoworks.html

I am a chemical engineer and had a first publication (on infrared
analysis) in Zietschrift fur Elektrochemie in 1964. So I guess things
change more slowly than I expected!

BTW, I believe Mr. Randi was a promoter and magician at one time?

Brian R. Connelly, LMHC
http://www.bestcoaching.org
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Old 6th January 2005, 05:01 AM
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Dear all,

in the latest issue of 'similia', swiss homeopathic magazine edited by Mohinder Sing Jus, Daniel Hasler, a student of homeopathy wrote about the homeopathic placebo effect. This is a resumee of his article:

When you say homeopathic remedies don't contain anything, it is correct from the chemical point of view. But homeopathy is not a chemical treatment.

Nobody has difficulties to admit that we cannot prove chemically the existence of data on a CD. No chemical analysis can show us if the CD contains music or windows. Everybody accepts the fact that the CD is only the carrier of information, like images, texts, music, videos, programs, etc. In order to get the information we need a CD-player or a computer.

Do we have to say then, that Mozart's music is only placebo, because it cannot be proved chemically to be on the CD?

Transferring this model to homeopathy we have the globuli being the carrier of the information. Only a living being (instead of the CD-player) can experience the effects of this information.

I enjoyed this article very much.

Frauke Girus-Nowoczyn
Germany

praxis@ars-homoeopathica.de
http://www.ars-homoeopathica.de
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Old 6th January 2005, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anamchara
Dear all,

in the latest issue of 'similia', swiss homeopathic magazine edited by Mohinder Sing Jus, Daniel Hasler, a student of homeopathy wrote about the homeopathic placebo effect. This is a resumee of his article:

When you say homeopathic remedies don't contain anything, it is correct from the chemical point of view. But homeopathy is not a chemical treatment.

Nobody has difficulties to admit that we cannot prove chemically the existence of data on a CD. No chemical analysis can show us if the CD contains music or windows. Everybody accepts the fact that the CD is only the carrier of information, like images, texts, music, videos, programs, etc. In order to get the information we need a CD-player or a computer.

Do we have to say then, that Mozart's music is only placebo, because it cannot be proved chemically to be on the CD?

Transferring this model to homeopathy we have the globuli being the carrier of the information. Only a living being (instead of the CD-player) can experience the effects of this information.

I enjoyed this article very much.

Frauke Girus-Nowoczyn
Germany

praxis@ars-homoeopathica.de
http://www.ars-homoeopathica.de
The tests mentioned in the article on the OP do not rely on whether a chemical effect or difference can be showed. They rely on whether an actual effect on humans can be shown. This is the crunch: We need not discuss, for now at least, how or why homeopathy works. The core of the matter is that tests consistently fail to show that it works, and your refutations of articles like this ought to center on that.

Why is it that neither proving effects nor healing effects can be shown above placebo in a proper experimental setting?

As for the content of a CD, it is quite true that a chemical analysis will not show the characteristics of the data content, but a digital analysis will. The analogy used is as irrelevant as saying that you cannot measure the weight of a car with a voltmeter.

Hans
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Old 6th January 2005, 07:20 AM
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Since informations can be stored & decoded & trasmitted at ultra-molecular, sub-atomic or quantum level, we can't deny these possibilities just by saying, no chemical in atomic & molecular form of active substance is present in homeopathic remedies. One will have to show absense of any quantum particles in remedies based on the limit of E=mc2, to disaprove these remedies. These remedies will be working by some excitations &/or balancing the imbalanced energy levels of molecular structure of differant parts/cells of our body.

We should also think & try to understand their working by their effect on acid/base & water (three ayurvedic types) balances in body.
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