yeah - the linde paper is kinda old and has been refuted by bigger and better meta-analyses.

c

Hi All,

Here is the link straight to the study, as published in

Rheumatology (Oxford) Apr 21, 2004 IR Bell et al

http://www.curbside.md/curbside/entry_page/117373#rct

The conclusions:

CONCLUSIONS:
This study replicates and extends a previous 1-month
placebo-controlled crossover study in fibromyalgia that pre-screened
for only one homeopathic remedy. Using a broad selection of remedies
and the flexible LM dose (1/50,000 dilution factor) series, the
present study demonstrated that individualized homeopathy is
significantly better than placebo in lessening tender point pain and
improving the quality of life and global health of persons with
fibromyalgia.

gimpy - are you there?:-)

Regards

Luise


On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, roger van zandvoort wrote:

> My mail did not work, there was supposed to be a internet link to a website.
> I try it differently now
> goto
> http://www.curbside.md/
>
> search for homeopathy.
>
> some nice and less nice material will come out.
>

I am a bit puzzled now. it is early days in my learning about homepathy.

On the hilter threads, people have quite rightly pointed out that it is not homeopathic for hitler to haven taken nux. vom. and bellad. every day. This is because homeopathic remedies have long term effects unlike allopathic drugs which just relieve symptoms.

But in the fibromyalgia trial above. Patients took their LMpotencies every day throughout the trial. And the trial was a cross-over trial so that verum and placebo swapped half way through. Surely, the first people on homeopathy would have continued to gain from it even on placebo? Were the people doing the research real homeopaths? Did this make the results wrong?

Can anyone help explain?

This one of the problems with using DBCTs for homeopathic remedies. The protocols are designed for allopathic remedies and are ill suited for the differing effects of homeopathic remedies. That is why the skeptics are always pointing to poorly designed DBCTs that show homeopathy no better than placebo.

Occasionally the circumstances are such that homeopathy comes through anyway. It is really a credit to homeopathy when it does well in a trial with the deck stacked against it.

I do feel rather uncomfortable that we reject trials that show homeopathy does not work, but leap on those that do, even if we can see their design is flawed.

But my real question was either the trial is good homeopathy and so is hitler's usage, or both are bad. Which is it?

Both bad. But a bad trial with a good outcome suggests that a good trial would have had an even better outcome.

not sure I agree. that is why the critics shout at us. bad trials -> bad outcome. always.

"That is why the skeptics are always pointing to poorly designed DBCTs that show homeopathy no better than placebo.

Occasionally the circumstances are such that homeopathy comes through anyway. It is really a credit to homeopathy when it does well in a trial with the deck stacked against it."

I think you may missing the point. DBCTs will not effect the efficacy of any homeopathic remedy: what they do is compare the performance of remedy versus control, while at the same time removing as much as possible any extraneous variables that may affect the results unneccesarily. If homeopathy works it will perform better than placebo.

regards

c

He seems to be stuck in "broadcast" mode; not much "receiving" going
on...

On Jan 10, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Luise Kunkle wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> Here is the link straight to the study, as published in
>
> Rheumatology (Oxford) Apr 21, 2004 IR Bell et al
>
> http://www.curbside.md/curbside/entry_page/117373#rct
>
> The conclusions:
>
> CONCLUSIONS:
> This study replicates and extends a previous 1-month
> placebo-controlled crossover study in fibromyalgia that pre-screened
> for only one homeopathic remedy. Using a broad selection of remedies
> and the flexible LM dose (1/50,000 dilution factor) series, the
> present study demonstrated that individualized homeopathy is
> significantly better than placebo in lessening tender point pain and
> improving the quality of life and global health of persons with
> fibromyalgia.
>
> gimpy - are you there?:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Luise
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, roger van zandvoort wrote:
>
>> My mail did not work, there was supposed to be a internet link to a
>> website.
>> I try it differently now
>> goto
>> http://www.curbside.md/
>>
>> search for homeopathy.
>>
>> some nice and less nice material will come out.
>>

Yep, and somebody with a great haircut told him it (crystal wireless)
was the height of technology, so ever since he's been throwing away any
catalogs and magazines that *purport* to advertise the more current
models. After all, he *knows* them to be delusional, so why read? And
oh, all those people using these things called "computers", chatting on
so-called internet lists? They're all imagining it... What, you say
*he's* chatting too? Nope, that's just your imagination, because he
knows better than that, and would never do such an unscientific thing.
I mean sheesh, how could typing *here* translate into typing *there*?
Without any *paper* even? And on millions of computers at once? What
a laugh! Must be that "placebo effect" I read about...

Hey, I think I'm getting the hang of this "skeptic" thing... :-D

On Jan 10, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Irene de Villiers wrote:

>
> On Thu, January 10, 2008 3:46 pm, Robert & Shannon Nelson wrote:
>> He seems to be stuck in "broadcast" mode; not much "receiving" going
>> on...
>
> LOL :-)
> Maybe he needs an upgrade to high definition;
> he probably still has an old crystal wireless - so not getting the
> picture
> yet :-)
>
> ....Irene
> --
> Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
> P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
> www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
> "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
>
>
>
>