Hello Homeolist,

Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally ?

Please post your comments.

Regards

Somenath

Hi Somenath,
What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
Shannon

On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:

> Hello Homeolist,
>
> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally ?
>
> Please post your comments.
>
> Regards
>
> Somenath
>

Thanks, what a fun question!
If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.

But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
(certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!

What do you think?
Shannon

On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:

> Dear Shannon,
>
> I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
> using homeopathy exclusively ?
>
> Regards
>
> Somenath
>
> On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
>> Hi Somenath,
>> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
>> Shannon
>>
>> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Homeolist,
>>>
>>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Please post your comments.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Somenath
>>>

Dear Shanon,

Thanks for your post.

Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
Programme ?

We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.

As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?

Regards

Somenath

On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> Thanks, what a fun question!
> If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
> would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
> needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
> diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.
>
> But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
> (certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
> in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
> principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
> resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
> failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!
>
> What do you think?
> Shannon
>
> On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:
>
> > Dear Shannon,
> >
> > I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
> > using homeopathy exclusively ?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Somenath
> >
> > On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> >> Hi Somenath,
> >> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
> >> Shannon
> >>
> >> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Homeolist,
> >>>
> >>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> Please post your comments.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Somenath
> >>>

Ah, I see your question--is single-remedy effective enough to provide
the primary treatment modality for severe diseases, and what is the
reliability factor. That answer of course would depend on many things.
In the US we don't presently have enough homeopaths of *any* sort to
"take over", and most have little or no experience with severe
diseases, in part because non-licensed people (and there is no license
for homeopathy in the US) are forbidden to treat those diseases deemed
"serious"--tho so long as we are careful to respect our legal
boundaries, we can "treat the patient who happens to *have*" said
serious disease. Still, we are forbidden to be primary caretaker, and
forbidden to offer homeopathy *instead* of turning the case over to an
MD for drugs, and if we make what we might consider to be reasonable
claims, we risk legal action.

I will be curious to hear others' thoughts about other countries, but
obviously a great deal of "transition" would be needed (more
homeopaths, more training). Is that your point, that protocols can
streamline the training and treatments, to make it more feasible?
Perhaps. I find both sides of the argument to have merit, and
personally I do not share the "popular" position that the world is too
small for different types of prescribing. I do, however, continue to
be interested particularly in *long-term* outcomes of each approach.
Thanks!
Shannon


On Apr 2, 2006, at 8:59 AM, drsunshine wrote:

> Dear Shanon,
>
> Thanks for your post.
>
> Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
> Programme ?
>
> We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.
>
> As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
> Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
> single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?
>
> Regards
>
> Somenath

No one will deny that the average doctor has better chances of prolonging life with the life saving protocols of Modern medicine. However the quality of life thus prolonged is again a debatable question.

If there are other protocols available that can be used instead of modern medicines, it is worth studying them. The after effects of such protocols are to be carefully evaluated over a period of time.

Until and unless these 'alternative' protocols are time tested, they are nothing but 'quackery.' Even quacks are known to palliate, and that is how they attract patients.

Murthy

At 07:29 PM 4/2/2006, you wrote:
>Dear Shanon,
>
>Thanks for your post.
>
>Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
>Programme ?
>
>We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.
>
>As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
>Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
>single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?
>
>Regards
>
>Somenath

To be limited to giving one single remedy throughout the entire
homoeopathic treatment is not traditional homeopathy. The way you portray
the traditional method is misleading. Traditional homoeopaths use single
remedies, alternations, intercurrents and a series of remedies when
necessary. These methods can be found in the works of Hahnemann,
Boenninghausen, Hering, Jahr, Kent, Boger and others. It would be much
clearer if you would acknowledge these facts and we can move on.

The above is a hypothetical question which can not be answered yes or no.
We would have to form a system and test it in the field. I will say that
Homoeopaths have cured TB with traditional methods since the beginning.
Boenninghausen was dying to TB. He wrote a letter to a friend who was a
homoeopath to say good bye. He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was
cured! Then he began to study Homoeopathy and became a great practitioner
and teacher. In this famous case only a single remedy was necessary. In
other more complicated cases it may take more remedies to complete the cure.

Sincerely, David Little

Sincerely, David Little


>On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> > Thanks, what a fun question!
> > If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
> > would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
> > needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
> > diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.
> >
> > But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
> > (certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
> > in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
> > principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
> > resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
> > failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!
> >
> > What do you think?
> > Shannon
> >
> > On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Shannon,
> > >
> > > I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
> > > using homeopathy exclusively ?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Somenath
> > >
> > > On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> > >> Hi Somenath,
> > >> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
> > >> Shannon
> > >>
> > >> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hello Homeolist,
> > >>>
> > >>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
> > >>> ?
> > >>>
> > >>> Please post your comments.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards
> > >>>
> > >>> Somenath
> > >>>

Dear David,

Agreed that we will be treating the TB cases with many single remedies
as & when indicated. How far will be the reliability factor because of
all the even direct disciples of Hahnemann were not a copy of an
expert prescriber like Hahnemann ....What to talk of today ? How many
David Littles have you produced in your decades of propagating &
working on homeopathy as a teacher ?

What is the guarantee that only a symptom based treatment therapy with
homeopathy can assure the public with a high rate of cure for such
fatal chronic infections like TB ?

> He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was cured!

What about the millions with TB today who are not Barons & who will
hardly find a real classical homeopath in their area ?

Will you be advising them to go to the conventional school treatment
programme with antibiotics which is hundred times more relaible than
getting treated with a classical homeopath who will be shooting in the
dark with his remedies ?

Has any classsical homeopath till today come out with a large scale
study of major infections like TB or HIV/AIDS or any chronic infection
or chronic diseases showing fully cured cases accompanied with before
& after treatment documantation of the cases ? Have they been
published in peer reviewed journals or presented before any scientific
community for the sake of scientific discussion atleast ?

Or wont it be admirable that we work together to develop protocols for
chronic cases like TB so that we can atleast put all the cases on
these protocols as a 1st line treatment for the infection.
Individualise only the ones who have failed to respond to the standard
protocol after a period of time which may be around 20-30%.

In this way I believe that we can build more confidence & awareness
within the public & the medical community at large in the present time
& in the time to come.

Regards

Somenath



On 4/3/06, David Little <little (AT) simillimum (DOT) com> wrote:
> At 07:29 PM 4/2/2006, you wrote:
> >Dear Shanon,
> >
> >Thanks for your post.
> >
> >Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
> >Programme ?
> >
> >We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.
> >
> >As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
> >Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
> >single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Somenath
>
> To be limited to giving one single remedy throughout the entire
> homoeopathic treatment is not traditional homeopathy. The way you portray
> the traditional method is misleading. Traditional homoeopaths use single
> remedies, alternations, intercurrents and a series of remedies when
> necessary. These methods can be found in the works of Hahnemann,
> Boenninghausen, Hering, Jahr, Kent, Boger and others. It would be much
> clearer if you would acknowledge these facts and we can move on.
>
> The above is a hypothetical question which can not be answered yes or no.
> We would have to form a system and test it in the field. I will say that
> Homoeopaths have cured TB with traditional methods since the beginning.
> Boenninghausen was dying to TB. He wrote a letter to a friend who was a
> homoeopath to say good bye. He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was
> cured! Then he began to study Homoeopathy and became a great practitioner
> and teacher. In this famous case only a single remedy was necessary. In
> other more complicated cases it may take more remedies to complete the cure.
>
> Sincerely, David Little
>
> Sincerely, David Little
>
>
> >On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> > > Thanks, what a fun question!
> > > If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
> > > would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
> > > needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
> > > diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.
> > >
> > > But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
> > > (certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
> > > in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
> > > principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
> > > resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
> > > failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > > Shannon
> > >
> > > On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Shannon,
> > > >
> > > > I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
> > > > using homeopathy exclusively ?
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Somenath
> > > >
> > > > On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> > > >> Hi Somenath,
> > > >> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
> > > >> Shannon
> > > >>
> > > >> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hello Homeolist,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
> > > >>> ?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Please post your comments.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regards
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Somenath
> > > >>>

Hi Somenath,

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, drsunshine wrote:

cut
?
>
>> He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was cured!
>
This is probably a myth.

It is based on v. Boenninghausen curriculum vita, written by some
other person.

While v. B. never seems to have contradicted it, I have found in the
journals and typed up in German "the Baron's", i.e. v.
Boenninghausen's history of his own case.

It reads somewhat different:-)

The German version of it will be found online in the not too far
future.

I'll post on the list when it is.

Regards

Luise




> What about the millions with TB today who are not Barons & who will
> hardly find a real classical homeopath in their area ?
>
> Will you be advising them to go to the conventional school treatment
> programme with antibiotics which is hundred times more relaible than
> getting treated with a classical homeopath who will be shooting in the
> dark with his remedies ?
>
> Has any classsical homeopath till today come out with a large scale
> study of major infections like TB or HIV/AIDS or any chronic infection
> or chronic diseases showing fully cured cases accompanied with before
> & after treatment documantation of the cases ? Have they been
> published in peer reviewed journals or presented before any scientific
> community for the sake of scientific discussion atleast ?
>
> Or wont it be admirable that we work together to develop protocols for
> chronic cases like TB so that we can atleast put all the cases on
> these protocols as a 1st line treatment for the infection.
> Individualise only the ones who have failed to respond to the standard
> protocol after a period of time which may be around 20-30%.
>
> In this way I believe that we can build more confidence & awareness
> within the public & the medical community at large in the present time
> & in the time to come.
>
> Regards
>
> Somenath
>
>
>
> On 4/3/06, David Little <little (AT) simillimum (DOT) com> wrote:
>> At 07:29 PM 4/2/2006, you wrote:
>>> Dear Shanon,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your post.
>>>
>>> Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
>>> Programme ?
>>>
>>> We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.
>>>
>>> As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
>>> Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
>>> single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Somenath
>>
>> To be limited to giving one single remedy throughout the entire
>> homoeopathic treatment is not traditional homeopathy. The way you portray
>> the traditional method is misleading. Traditional homoeopaths use single
>> remedies, alternations, intercurrents and a series of remedies when
>> necessary. These methods can be found in the works of Hahnemann,
>> Boenninghausen, Hering, Jahr, Kent, Boger and others. It would be much
>> clearer if you would acknowledge these facts and we can move on.
>>
>> The above is a hypothetical question which can not be answered yes or no.
>> We would have to form a system and test it in the field. I will say that
>> Homoeopaths have cured TB with traditional methods since the beginning.
>> Boenninghausen was dying to TB. He wrote a letter to a friend who was a
>> homoeopath to say good bye. He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was
>> cured! Then he began to study Homoeopathy and became a great practitioner
>> and teacher. In this famous case only a single remedy was necessary. In
>> other more complicated cases it may take more remedies to complete the cure.
>>
>> Sincerely, David Little
>>
>> Sincerely, David Little
>>
>>
>>> On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
>>>> Thanks, what a fun question!
>>>> If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
>>>> would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
>>>> needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
>>>> diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.
>>>>
>>>> But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
>>>> (certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
>>>> in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
>>>> principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
>>>> resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
>>>> failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>> Shannon
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Shannon,
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
>>>>> using homeopathy exclusively ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Somenath
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Somenath,
>>>>>> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
>>>>>> Shannon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Homeolist,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please post your comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somenath
>>>>>>>

Hi Luise,

Thanks for your post with that piece of info.

It was David Little who wrote -

" I will say that Homoeopaths have cured TB with traditional methods
since the beginning.Boenninghausen was dying to TB. He wrote a letter
to a friend who was a
homoeopath to say good bye. He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was
cured! "

Well, I thought that David was the guru & guide of all known & unkown
history of homeopathy..:) Hey David are you listening....? Want to
make some correction in history notes...? Maybe No....not a big deal
whether V.B was a Baron or not ...

Best Regards

Somenath





On 4/3/06, Luise Kunkle <sem-pa (AT) bar-do (DOT) net> wrote:
>
> Hi Somenath,
>
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, drsunshine wrote:
>
> cut
> ?
> >
> >> He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was cured!
> >
> This is probably a myth.
>
> It is based on v. Boenninghausen curriculum vita, written by some
> other person.
>
> While v. B. never seems to have contradicted it, I have found in the
> journals and typed up in German "the Baron's", i.e. v.
> Boenninghausen's history of his own case.
>
> It reads somewhat different:-)
>
> The German version of it will be found online in the not too far
> future.
>
> I'll post on the list when it is.
>
> Regards
>
> Luise
>
>
>
>
> > What about the millions with TB today who are not Barons & who will
> > hardly find a real classical homeopath in their area ?
> >
> > Will you be advising them to go to the conventional school treatment
> > programme with antibiotics which is hundred times more relaible than
> > getting treated with a classical homeopath who will be shooting in the
> > dark with his remedies ?
> >
> > Has any classsical homeopath till today come out with a large scale
> > study of major infections like TB or HIV/AIDS or any chronic infection
> > or chronic diseases showing fully cured cases accompanied with before
> > & after treatment documantation of the cases ? Have they been
> > published in peer reviewed journals or presented before any scientific
> > community for the sake of scientific discussion atleast ?
> >
> > Or wont it be admirable that we work together to develop protocols for
> > chronic cases like TB so that we can atleast put all the cases on
> > these protocols as a 1st line treatment for the infection.
> > Individualise only the ones who have failed to respond to the standard
> > protocol after a period of time which may be around 20-30%.
> >
> > In this way I believe that we can build more confidence & awareness
> > within the public & the medical community at large in the present time
> > & in the time to come.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Somenath
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/3/06, David Little <little (AT) simillimum (DOT) com> wrote:
> >> At 07:29 PM 4/2/2006, you wrote:
> >>> Dear Shanon,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your post.
> >>>
> >>> Fine lets say can we build a National Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control
> >>> Programme ?
> >>>
> >>> We can have all the needful interventions as & when necessary.
> >>>
> >>> As homeopathy can cure tuberculosis can we really rely on a National
> >>> Homeopathy Tuberculosis Control Programme which will be based on the
> >>> single remedy approach ? If yes, what will be the reliability factor ?
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Somenath
> >>
> >> To be limited to giving one single remedy throughout the entire
> >> homoeopathic treatment is not traditional homeopathy. The way you portray
> >> the traditional method is misleading. Traditional homoeopaths use single
> >> remedies, alternations, intercurrents and a series of remedies when
> >> necessary. These methods can be found in the works of Hahnemann,
> >> Boenninghausen, Hering, Jahr, Kent, Boger and others. It would be much
> >> clearer if you would acknowledge these facts and we can move on.
> >>
> >> The above is a hypothetical question which can not be answered yes or no.
> >> We would have to form a system and test it in the field. I will say that
> >> Homoeopaths have cured TB with traditional methods since the beginning..
> >> Boenninghausen was dying to TB. He wrote a letter to a friend who was a
> >> homoeopath to say good bye. He prescribed Pulsatilla and the Baron was
> >> cured! Then he began to study Homoeopathy and became a great practitioner
> >> and teacher. In this famous case only a single remedy was necessary. In
> >> other more complicated cases it may take more remedies to complete the
> cure.
> >>
> >> Sincerely, David Little
> >>
> >> Sincerely, David Little
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> >>>> Thanks, what a fun question!
> >>>> If you really mean "exclusively", I would have to say No. Hahnemann
> >>>> would have agreed! He noted that sometimes other modalities are
> >>>> needed--sometimes even surgery, but more commonly lifestyle changes,
> >>>> diet, hygiene, counseling, and no doubt some others.
> >>>>
> >>>> But the idea of a rearranged national program *led* by homeopaths
> >>>> (certainly not enough for that in the US!) or more feasibly, conducted
> >>>> in context of an appreciation and understanding of homeopathic
> >>>> principles and the *proper* place of homeopathy (i.e. as a *first*
> >>>> resort, not a move of desperation after drugs and surgery have
> >>>> failed!), well, what a marvelous thought!
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you think?
> >>>> Shannon
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 2, 2006, at 6:49 AM, drsunshine wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear Shannon,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I mean can we build a substitute National Health Control Programme
> >>>>> using homeopathy exclusively ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Somenath
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 4/2/06, Robert & Shannon Nelson <shannonnelson (AT) tds (DOT) net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Somenath,
> >>>>>> What do you mean by "take over"? Could you explain your question?
> >>>>>> Shannon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2006, at 8:01 PM, drsunshine wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hello Homeolist,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Can homeopathy take over National Health Control Programmes globally
> >>>>>>> ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Please post your comments.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Somenath
> >>>>>>>