>>Again there is NO solid proof that it is CAUSED by some virus called HIV
>
> I have seen NO solid proof that HIV plays no role in many cases of
>AIDS where it is present. Complex miasms, suppression, drugs and negative
>terrain changes come together to produce certain complicated disease
>states. Certain cases of AIDS appear to follow this pattern. Heredity,
>predispositions, chronic miasms, suppression, drugs, poor nutrition,
>unhealthy lifestyle and HIV as well as a spectrum of opportunistic
>infections may all play a role in this disease., AIDS (like many others)
>may be dependant on the aetiological constellation of interdependent causes
>that lead to a greater effect. I have stated what I believe is a middle
>path that stands between the orthodox HIV-AIDS view and the view of those
>who don't believe that viruses play a role in disease.
>
> Sincerely, David Little

Hi David,

It is very difficult to prove a negative.

HIV has to be proven to cause AIDS - that is what has to be proven.

And we aren't talking here about 'all viruses not playing a role in
disease" We are talking about HIV causing AIDS.

First it has to be proven that HIV 'causes' AIDS and it hasn't.

Yes, they say that HIV is present - a whole virus, pieces, whatever. More
on that below

Toxicology abounds re AIDS, but no one is looking there. My usual analogy:
Does a detective, upon finding bullet holes in a dead person, only embark on
a study of viruses that cause bullet holes?

What if, viruses are there for some other reason? Not as a cause?

Just because I'm at the scene of a traffic accident doesn't mean I caused
it, I may be there as a homeopath helping to treat the wounded.

The role of retroviruses in human life and disease
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/?newsid=17320
The viruses, or their products, may be playing a neutral or even a
beneficial role. We first need to understand such symbiotic roles before we
can recognise a pathological deviation that might contribute to a disease.
This is likely to become of increasingly important to our understanding of
certain cancers and autoimmune diseases.'"

" 'Genome sequencing reveals that 8% of the human genome consists of HERVs
and roughly half of our DNA is made up of viral genes or their genetic
products.' So what are they
really doing there? "


Middle doesn't always work for me when I haven't seen proof. Rewards have
been offered for proof - no one has claimed them, either.

This is extremely important as those who are told they are HIV positive,
take it as a death sentence from a medical doctor, just as many who told
they have cancer do.

And to be told they are HIV positive, implying AIDS, in my mind is
criminal. We all know what the mind can do and the effect it can have on
our health.

I STRONGLY REFUSE to collaborate & be part of this system that is so
corrupt and tells very few truths and can't even prove that HIV exists or
causes AIDS............the implications now of being told you are HIV
positive is a strong exciting factor..........................It is
WRONG...........and then what follows after that.........that is where the
vital force is really finally done in with their drugs...............but
much is harmed just with the information.

http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm
>From Stefan Lanka, Virologist
"All these photos have in common that they, resp. the authors, can´t claim
that they present a virus, as long as they do not also provide the original
publications which describe how and what from the virus has been isolated.
Such original publications are cited nowhere."

"Indeed, in the entire scientific literature there´s not even one
publication, where for "viruses in the medicine" the fulfillment of Koch´s
first postulate is even claimed"

more
*********
http://www.duesberg.com/articles/ept4cells.html
Genetica 95: 5-24, 1995
A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE HIV-T4-CELL-AIDS HYPOTHESIS
(BY the way ...............Prior to 1987, Dr. Peter Duesberg was considered
to be one of the top retrovirologists in the world. For 25 years he claims
that he never had a
grant application turned down [Duesberg, 1997]. But, after his infamous
Cancer Research paper was published [Duesberg, 1987] arguing that
retroviruses, including HIV, could not cause disease, he found the
scientific world turning against him. From that point on, not a single one
of his government grant applications was approved, and he has had to rely
on a small amount of private funding and his university salary to do any
research at all.

*******************

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/slartefact.htm
HIV; REALITY OR ARTEFACT?
By Stefan Lanka
"Viruses are essentially just packages of genetic information enclosed in a
coat which consists of proteins. They can reproduce themselves only by
infecting a suitable host cell and appropriating the chemical machinery
they find there. The proteins making up the viruses are characteristic for
each species of virus. Apart from enveloping and transporting the genetic
information intact, the composition of proteins for a given virus results
in a specific shape for the virus particle.

This much is generally known. Less well-known is the existence of other
particles which look like viruses but aren't, and are nonchalantly referred
to as "virus-like" particles. Such particles are far from rare, found, for
example, always in placentas, and very frequently in the artificial
environment of laboratory cell cultures. They have served to muddy the
waters considerably as far as AIDS research is concerned, because particles
just like these have been called HIV. To date, none of these has been
characterised and shown to exist as an entity which one may justifiably
call a virus. "

excerpt......
:What does the AIDS test actually test for?

Since "HIV" has been shown to be a laboratory artefact it must be assumed
that, when not just cross-reacting with other known antibodies, the "AIDS"
test detects antibodies against proteins produced in the procedure itself.
They must be of human origin because the cells used originated from
leukaemic patients. Test positivity, logically, results from immunological
contact with them. However, since positivity actually correlates with
otherwise unrelated factors such as rheumatism and sun bathing, no
specificity can be ascribed to the test.(29) Whether antibody positivity
really correlates with disease as is commonly supposed, remains to be
determined by a critical re-evaluation of the data. Condoms, therefore,
serve only to protect against venereal diseases and as contraceptives, and
worse lull the user into a false sense of security by ignoring real dangers
he may be exposing himself to. "

""Whenever and wherever reverse transcriptase activity was detected it was
rashly assumed that retroviruses were at work. This turned out to be a
grave error, because it was later found that the enzyme occurred in all
living matter, proving that reverse transcriptase activity had nothing to
do with retroviruses per se.(15)""

**********
German Court Rules "HIV Never Isolated"
http://www.7mac.com/blackstar/health...r_isolated.htm

*******
http://www.altheal.org/toxicity/house.htm
"We’re told that it is, but according to Stevenson and “Nature Medicine,”,
we don’t have proof"


What Do We Really Know About HIV?
SCROLL 2/3 of the way down the page of the ARticle on NY experimentation
on children

In July 2003, the esteemed science journal Nature Medicine published an
article called “HIV-1 Pathogenesis” by AIDS researcher Mario Stevenson of
the University of Massachusetts Medical School. The article was part of its
“20 years of AIDS science” special edition.(6)

>From the introduction:

"Despite considerable advances in HIV science in the past 20 years, the
reason why HIV-1 infection is pathogenic is still debated... considerable
efforts have gone into identifying the mechanisms by which HIV-1 causes
disease, and two major hypotheses have been forwarded."

According to Stevenson, twenty years and 118 billion dollars in AIDS
research (“considerable efforts”), have given no reliable proof as to how
HIV might cause disease (“the mechanisms” by which HIV is presumed to be
“pathogenic”). While it is always claimed that HIV is proven to cause
illness, Stevenson spends the bulk of his review article pouring over what
he describes as two “major hypotheses”that try to describe how HIV might work.

In science, a “hypothesis” is an idea or proposal about how something might
work. A hypothesis isn’t a fact, it’s a guess that a scientist tries to
prove is accurate and true. If a hypothesis fails, it’s discarded, so that
new, better, more accurate ideas can be heard.

In the article Stevenson explains that we don’t know how HIV might damage,
let alone kill cells, “…it is debatable whether lymphocyte [white blood
cell] damage is due to the direct killing of infected cells...” and we
don’t have any idea how HIV affects immunity, “…processes contributing to
the immune activation state in HIV-1 infection are not well understood..."
The HIV hypothesis states absolutely that HIV kills T-Cells, but Stevenson
tells us the underpinning of this assertion is still debated.

Stevenson concludes the paper by returning to the main theme – the vast
unknowns in HIV science:

"There is a general misconception that more is known about HIV-1 than
about any other virus and that all of the important issues regarding HIV-1
biology and pathogenesis have been resolved. On the contrary, what we know
represents only a thin veneer on the surface of what needs to be known."

Stevenson tells us that after 20 years of research into the various HIV
hypotheses, we know "a thin veneer," about HIV's "biology and
pathogenesis," that is, what HIV might look like, how it might work, and,
as such, how - and therefore if - it is responsible for AIDS illnesses.
We’re told that it is, but according to Stevenson and “Nature Medicine,”,
we don’t have proof

*********

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/group.htm

THE GROUP

The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis
came into existence as a group of signatories of an open letter to the
scientific community. The letter (dated June 6, 1991) has been submitted to
the editors of Nature, Science, The Lancet and The New England Journal of
Medicine. All have refused to publish it. In 1995 The Group was able to get
a letter published in Science.

You can also sign the statement below online.

To the editor:

It is widely believed by the general public that a retrovirus
called HIV causes the group diseases called AIDS. Many biochemical
scientists now question this hypothesis. We propose that a thorough
reappraisal of the existing evidence for and against this hypothesis be
conducted by a suitable independent group. We further propose that critical
epidemiological studies be devised and undertaken.

Signatories:

* Charles A. Thomas, Jr. Ph.D. (Mol. Biologist, Pres. Helicon Fnd.,
San Diego, CA)
* Harvey Bialy, Ph.D. (Editor Bio/Technology, New York, NY)
* Harry Rubin, D.V.M. (Prof. Cell Biology, Univ. Cal. Berkeley, CA)
* Richard C. Strohman, Ph.D. (Prof. Cell Biology, Univ. Cal.
Berkeley, CA)
* Phillip E. Johnson (Prof. Law, Univ. Cal. Berkeley, CA)
* Gordon J. Edlin, Ph.D. (Prof. Biochem. & Physics, Univ. Hawaii, HI)
* Beverly E. Griffin, Ph.D. (Dir. Dept. Virology, Royal Postgrad.
Med. School, London, UK)
* Robert S. Root-Bernstein (Prof. Physiology, Michigan State Univ.,
East Lansing, MI)
* Gordon Stewart, M.D. (Emeritus Prof. Public Health,
Epidemiologist, Isle of Wight, UK)
* Carlos Sonnenschein, M.D. (Tufts Univ., Medicine, Boston, MA)
* Richard L. Pitter, Ph.D. (Dessert Research Inst., Univ. Nevada
System, Reno NV)
* Nathaniel S. Lehrman, M.D. (Psychiatrist, Roslyn, NY)
* John Lauritsen (Author 'Poison by Prescription', New York, NY)
* William Holub, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Live Sciences Inst. New York, NY)
* Claudia Holub, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Live Sciences Inst. New York, NY)
* Frank R. Buianouckas Ph.D. (Prof. Mathematics, Cuny, Bronx, NY)
* Philip Rosen, Ph.D. (Prof. Physics, Univ. Mass. Amherst, MA)
* Steven Jonas, M.D. (Prof. Preventive Medicine, Suny Stony Brook, NY)
* Bernard K. Forscher, Ph.D (Ret. Editor Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci.,
Santa Fe, NM)
* Kary B. Mullis, Ph.D. (Biochemist, PCR inventor, Consultant, La
Jolla, CA.)
* Jeffrey A. Fisher, M.D. (Pathologist, Mendham, NJ)
* Hansueli Albonico, M.D. (General Practitioner, Langnau, Switzerland)
* Robert Hoffman, Ph.D. (Prof. Dept. Pediatrics Univ. Cal. Med.
School, San Diego, CA)
* Timothy H. Hand, Ph.D. (Dept. Psychology, Oglethorpe Univ.
Atlanta, GA)
* Eleni Eleopulos, M.D. (Royal Perth Hospital, Perth, West Australia)
* Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A. (Dir. Research, Mutual Benefit
Life, Kansas City, MO)
* Ken N. Matsumura, M.D. (Chairman Alin Foundation & Research
Inst., Berkeley, CA.)
* David T. Berner, M.D. (Condon, MT)
* Theodor Wieland, Ph.D. (Max Planck Institut, Heidelberg, Germany)
* Joan Shenton, M.A. (Meditel, London, UK)
* John Anthony Morris, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Bell of Atari College
Park, MD)
* Sungchul Ji, Ph.D. (Prof. Pharmacology & Toxicology, Rutgers
Univ., Piscataway, NJ)

In addition there were 14 others who have added their signatures in
July 1991.

By March 1993 the following persons had added their signatories:

* Vahagn Agbabian, D.O. (Pontiac, MI)
* Barry R. Alexavich (Cell Biologist, Bristol, CT)
* David T. Berner, M.D. (Condon, MT)
* Shelly B. Blam, Ph.D. (Alameda, CA)
* Lawrence Bradford, Ph.D. (Benedictine College, Atchison, KS)
* Carl Bradford, J.D. (San Diego, CA)
* Michael Callen (Author 'Surviving AIDS', Hollywood, CA)
* Melinda Calleira (Pres. Amer. Ass. Science & Public Policy, Los
Angeles, CA)
* Hiram Caton, Ph.D. (Prof. App. Ethics, Griffith Univ., Brisbane,
Australia)
* Dennis Chaney, Ph.D. (Chaney Scientific Inc. Burlingame, CA)
* Michelle Cochrane (Emeryville, CA)
* Hywel Davies, M.D. (Cardiologist, Pueblo West, CO)
* Marlowe Dittlebrandt, M.D. (Portland, OR)
* Peter H. Duesberg, Ph.D. (Prof. Mol. Biology, Univ. Cal.
Berkeley, CA)
* Bryan J. Ellison (Author, Berkeley, CA)
* Michael Ellner (HEAL, New York, NY)
* Fabio Franchi, M.D. (Trieste, Italy)
* Trish Fahey (New York, NY)
* Celia Farber (Writer, New York, NY)
* Lawrence A. Falk, Jr., Ph.D. (Virologist Abott Labs, Consultant
NCI, Chicago, IL)
* James A. Fimea, Ph.D. (Laguna Beach, CA)
* Harry Flynn, (Author, Hollywood, CA)
* William L. Gardner, Ph.D. (Wellesley, MA)
* Arnold W. Giddens (Shingle Springs, CA)
* Robert Grabowski (Birminghan, MI)
* Martin Haas, Ph.D. (Dept. Biology Cancer Center, Univ. Cal., San
Diego, CA)
* Alfred Haessig, M.D. (Emeritus Prof. Immunolgy Univ. Bern,
Switzerland)
* Urs Haldimann (Editor, Swiss Ass. Science Writers, Arisdorf,
Switzerland)
* Neville Hodgkinson (Science Correspondent The Sunday Times,
London, UK)
* John Holmdahl, Ph.D. (Los Angeles, CA)
* Ross Horne (Montville, Queensland, Austalia)
* Heinrich Kremer, M.D. (Mueckenburg, Germany)
* Hans J. Kugler, Ph.D. (Editor Prev. Med. Update, Redondo Beach, CA)
* Robert Laarhoven (S.A.A.O., Hilversum, The Netherlands)
* Paul Lineback, M.S. (Eastern Oregon State College)
* Henk Loman, Ph.D. (Prof. Biophysics, Free Univ. Amsterdam, The
Netherlands)
* Judith Lopez (San Francisco, CA)
* Maurizio Luca-Moretti, Ph.D. (InterAmerican Medical Health Ass.,
Boca Raton, FL)
* William H. McIlhany, I.R.F. (Beverly Hills, CA)
* Peter McKeever, L.L.B. (London, UK)
* Michael D. Mellgard (Los Angeles, CA)
* David Mertz (Dept. Philosophy, Univ. Massachusetts, Amherst)
* Richard Mitchell, Ph.D. (Assoc. Prof. Sociology, Oregon State
Univ, Corvalus, OR)
* Joseph E. Morrow, Ph.D. (Cal. State Univ. Sacramento, CA)
* Cindy Orser (Ast. Prof. Bacteriology, Univ. Idaho, Moscow, ID)
* Hannes G. Pauli, M.D. (Former Director Bern Univ. Med. Faculty,
Bern, Switzerland)
* Paul Rabinow, Ph.D. (Prof. Dept. Anthropology Univ. Cal.,
Berkeley, CA)
* Jon Rappoport (Author 'AIDS Inc.')
* Dennis D. Rathman (Staff Member Lincoln Labs, Lexington, MA)
* Rodney M. Richards, Ph.D. (Amgen Inc., Thousand Oaks, CA)
* Judith Riesman, Ph.D. (Author, Arlington, VA)
* Michael Ristow, Ph.D. (Bochum, Germany)
* Mel T. Roach (Avatar Research, Tuscon, AZ)
* Gary Robertson (Broadbeach Waters, Queensland, Australia)
* Frank Rothschild (Project Dir., Berkeley Project on Bioscience &
Society, CA)
* David F. Salehi, Ph.D. (Lake Dallas, TX)
* Caspar Schmidt, M.D. (Psychiatrist, New York)
* Russell Schoch (Editor California Monthly, Berkeley, CA)
* Frederic I. Scott, Jr. (Editor American Clinical Laboratory,
Baltimore, MD)
* Udo Schuklenk (Dept. Ethics, Monash Univ., Melbourne, Australia)
* Jeremy F. Selvey (Los Angeles, CA)
* David Shugar, Ph.D. (Prof. Biophysics, Univ. Warsaw, Editor
Pharmacol. Therap., Poland)
* Sonja Silva (Los Lunas, NM)
* Ernest G. Silver, Ph.D. (Radiation Biologist, Oak Ridge, TN)
* Lockie M. Swengel (Del Mar, CA)
* Frederick Tobin, Ph.D. (Gorke, Australia)
* Jack True (Clayton, GA)
* La Trombetta (Burzynski Research Inst., Houston, TX)
* Friedrich Ulmer, Ph.D. (Prof. Math. & Stat., Bergische Univ.,
Wuppertal, Germany)
* Michael Verney-Elliot (Meditel, London, UK)
* Darrell G. Wells, Ph.D. (Emeritus Prof. Plant Sciences,
Brookings, SD)
* Wai Yeung, M.D. (Orinda, CA)

See website for more on list
Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

Hi Sheri and David,
Altho I recognize this is an interesting and possibly important topic,
I don't think it's a good one to continue with on the list. Sheri,
maybe a "middle road" for the discussion would be for you to put up
just a couple of short comments, and websites that interested people
can peruse? Otherwise it's the "measles" issue all over again, but
more so...
Shannon

On Monday, January 9, 2006, at 07:10 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

>>> Again there is NO solid proof that it is CAUSED by some virus called
>>> HIV
>>
>> I have seen NO solid proof that HIV plays no role in many cases of
>> AIDS where it is present. Complex miasms, suppression, drugs and
>> negative
>> terrain changes come together to produce certain complicated disease
>> states. Certain cases of AIDS appear to follow this pattern. Heredity,
>> predispositions, chronic miasms, suppression, drugs, poor nutrition,
>> unhealthy lifestyle and HIV as well as a spectrum of opportunistic
>> infections may all play a role in this disease., AIDS (like many
>> others)
>> may be dependant on the aetiological constellation of interdependent
>> causes
>> that lead to a greater effect. I have stated what I believe is a
>> middle
>> path that stands between the orthodox HIV-AIDS view and the view of
>> those
>> who don't believe that viruses play a role in disease.
>>
>> Sincerely, David Little
>
> Hi David,
>
> It is very difficult to prove a negative.
>
> HIV has to be proven to cause AIDS - that is what has to be proven.
>
> And we aren't talking here about 'all viruses not playing a role in
> disease" We are talking about HIV causing AIDS.
>
> First it has to be proven that HIV 'causes' AIDS and it hasn't.
>
> Yes, they say that HIV is presen

that there was an AIDS_HIV micro-organism.
When they tried to trace the first cases they ended up with a tissue sample that had been identified as Tuberculosis!!.

Some lunatic Medicos got involved in a "race" to identify AIDS - first across the line got a Nobel ---- more kudos than AIDS