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Old 30th September 2005, 02:25 PM
Robert & Shannon Nelson
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Default remedy response question

Not sure what to make of this...

Chief complaint is a huge uterine fibroid, tho there are *lots* of other "constitutional" issues too, which this remedy (thuja) is an attempt to also cover (not just the fibroid).

When she took the remedy (daily for several weeks) in 6c, she was initially enthusiastic:
- fibroid much smaller (tho effect lasted only about a day, hence the daily repeat--palliative??)
- feet no longer hurt in the morning (<< walking), and this was a *big* deal (tho that effect too lasted only the day)
- energy much better, feeling good, sleep good

BUT
after a few weeks she realized she had developed irritable bowel-type symptoms (frequent and burning stool), which was becoming increasingly troublesome, so she stopped the remedy, and fibroid and sore feet promptly returned.

Next I gave the same remedy in LM3. This time it had only a mildly helpful effect on energy (okay) and feet (sore, but not as bad), but did not seem to help the fibroid, at least not in the short run (she took it for only about 3 weeks). Also, after about three weeks she suddenly developed a skin lesion on her forearm, not sure what to call it... Maybe a type of wart, sort of flat-dome-shaped, nearly circular, pink). At that point she stopped the remedy. That was about a week ago, and the (?)wart now appears to be flaking/shrinking away, tho still a raised, pink area.

My question: If this were a matter of "externalizing the disease", what degree of internal improvement should I expect to have seen before that occurred? Or was this more likely a proving symptom and the remedy only palliative?
Thanks for all thoughts!

Shannon
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Old 30th September 2005, 09:25 PM
Luise Kunkle
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Default Re: remedy response question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
Not sure what to make of this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
Chief complaint is a huge uterine fibroid, tho there are *lots* of other "constitutional" issues too, which this remedy (thuja) is an attempt to also cover (not just the fibroid).
When she took the remedy (daily for several weeks) in 6c, she was initially enthusiastic: - fibroid much smaller (tho effect lasted only about a day, hence the daily repeat--palliative??)
This is hardly possible - at leas I do not see how it can be. A fibroid mass just does not shrink in a day and get small and big in a daily rhythm. Fibroid tissue, after all, is solid and reabsorption by the body as well as rebuilding would take quite some time.

Perhaps it is a cyst or may-be cystic fibroid? Then the fibroid itself would not get bigger or smaller - the cysts would fill up and get empty - this is probably possible that fast.

Why don't you ask this question on Minutus (or did you?) Last year, when I was there, Dr. Suraya Osman was reading on the list - perhaps she is still there. If anyone can answer your question it would be she. (You may still remember her from years back on Lyghtfoce).

Alternatively or additionally you may go to my homepage (bar-do.net). There is an article there by her. The title is "Endometriosis and Menstrual Pain) but I think there are other topics touched also - specifically cysts afair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
- feet no longer hurt in the morning (<< walking), and this was a > *big* deal (tho that effect too lasted only the day)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
- energy much better, feeling good, sleep good
BUT
after a few weeks she realized she had developed irritable bowel-type symptoms (frequent and burning stool), which was becoming increasingly troublesome, so she stopped the remedy, and fibroid and sore feet promptly returned.
Next I gave the same remedy in LM3. This time it had only a mildly helpful effect on energy (okay) and feet (sore, but not as bad), but did not seem to help the fibroid, at least not in the short run (she took it for only about 3 weeks). Also, after about three weeks she suddenly developed a skin lesion on her forearm, not sure what to call it... Maybe a type of wart, sort of flat-dome-shaped, nearly circular, pink). At that point she stopped the remedy. That was about a week ago, and the (?)wart now appears to be flaking/shrinking away, tho still a raised, pink area.
My question: If this were a matter of "externalizing the disease", what degree of internal improvement should I expect to have seen before that occurred?
Depends on what you mean by that. Very often there are skin eruptions after giving a fitting medicine - sometimes right the next day.

I am just reading a lot of that kind while typing up the first casebook of v. Boenninghausen. But this is one of the things I have learned also. (Btw. when a discharge is established, in this case loose and frequent stools - that is also considered to be a positive reaction. Afaik the Sehgal therapists consider this a *necessary* sign that the remedy is working)

A true shrinking of the fibrous tissue (because of reabsorption) will possibly take a long time before you can actually notice any difference.

Regards

Luise
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Old 1st October 2005, 01:05 AM
Robert & Shannon Nelson
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Default Re: remedy response question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
This is hardly possible - at leas I do not see how it can be. A fibroid mass just does not shrink in a day and get small and big in a daily rhythm.
I didn't mean there is any daily rhythm! I only meant that each dose of thuja 6c would shrink it (not sure if that happened within the first day or not), but when she stopped the daily doses, about a day later she would begin to feel it again. Same (or roughly similar) duration of effect with the herbs and flaxseed. Quite apparently (based on what "works") it's "a hormone thing"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
Fibroid tissue, after all, is solid and reabsorption by the body as well as rebuilding would take quite some time.
Maybe it's something other than a fibroid, but that's what her doctor called it. I have read, tho, that fibroids are influenced by hormone balance, usually by estrogen excess (tho some are progesterone sensitive instead), and that when the hormone balance changes, e.g. at menopause, sometimes that is enough in itself to make fibroids no longer problematic. I can't argue the matter either way, just that I have read the one explanation, and she has observed what she has observed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
Perhaps it is a cyst or may-be cystic fibroid? Then the fibroid itself would not get bigger or smaller - the cysts would fill up and get empty - this is probably possible that fast.
She's had several ultrasounds, and "fibroid tumor" is the term she was given. And would cysts get to size of six months pregnancy? I haven't much to go on, really...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
Why don't you ask this question on Minutus (or did you?) Last year, when I was there, Dr. Suraya Osman was reading on the list - perhaps she is still there. If anyone can answer your question it would be she. (You may still remember her from years back on Lyghtfoce).
Mm, good idea! I haven't seen Suriya posting for a while, tho...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
Alternatively or additionally you may go to my homepage (bar-do.net). There is an article there by her. The title is "Endometriosis and Menstrual Pain) but I think there are other topics touched also - specifically cysts afair.
Thanks, I'll look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
Depends on what you mean by that. Very often there are skin eruptions after giving a fitting medicine - sometimes right the next day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luise
I am just reading a lot of that kind while typing up the first casebook of v. Boenninghausen. But this is one of the things I have learned also. (Btw. when a discharge is established, in this case loose and frequent stools - that is also considered to be a positive reaction.
I'm definitely onto the desirability of "discharges"! I'd be way happy to see that begin... But I hadn't thought of warts in the same class! Don't know why tho, as I think about it...

Okay, I'll go look at Suriya's article...

Thanks!
Shannon
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Old 1st October 2005, 06:54 AM
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Dear Shannon,

When a drug is continued, after enough has been given, a miasm is established in some cases by that drug & this miasm imitates one of the chronic diseases or one of the accute miasms in accordance with its ability.

It is not " externalising the disease " donot take it as improvement, it is merely palliation.

What ever made you to select Thuja, please make sure these accute symptoms fit into your's " BUT "

Regards !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
BUT
after a few weeks she realized she had developed irritable bowel-type symptoms (frequent and burning stool), which was becoming increasingly troublesome, so she stopped the remedy, and fibroid and sore feet promptly returned.

Next I gave the same remedy in LM3. This time it had only a mildly helpful effect on energy (okay) and feet (sore, but not as bad), but did not seem to help the fibroid, at least not in the short run (she took it for only about 3 weeks). Also, after about three weeks she suddenly developed a skin lesion on her forearm, not sure what to call it... Maybe a type of wart, sort of flat-dome-shaped, nearly circular, pink). At that point she stopped the remedy. That was about a week ago, and the (?)wart now appears to be flaking/shrinking away, tho still a raised, pink area.


Shannon
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Old 2nd October 2005, 04:45 AM
Robert & Shannon Nelson
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Default Re: Re: remedy response question

Thanks Bajwa,

What leads you to conclude that it is palliation (plus proving) rather than curative--because of the relapse, or ??

Shannon
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Old 2nd October 2005, 05:15 PM
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Repeating every day the drug like Thuja even in 6th potency is not advisable or desirable. One will prove the drug and try to suppress earlier symptoms. During LMs also drug should not be repeated continuously. During waiting period one should watch for improvement in other symptoms and continue to wait if person is improving.

When skin symptoms appears it may be due to exterioration of internal condition or may be old symptoms if present in history. Fibriod is advanced pathology ,takes long time to show change. In case of fibroid I would give Higher potency like 200 or 1M and wait at least for 2 months. LM potencies also we should watch other constitutional symptoms like sleep or bowel movements or mental conditin, if improvements are there we have to wait.
I hope this helps.

Ramachandra,
Hyderabad,INDIA
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Old 3rd October 2005, 12:15 AM
Robert & Shannon Nelson
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Default Re: Re: remedy response question

If improvements (from thuja 6c, or from an LM) seem to last only a day or so, then you would take it that the action is palliative only?

Last edited by jonh; 4th October 2005 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 02:55 AM
Robert & Shannon Nelson
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Default Re: Re: remedy response question

Thanks Donna,

I also will be interested in more of others' thoughts! One thing I've gathered is that we sort of have varoius "schools" even within the basically "classical" community; some make extensive use of low potencies even for cases that certainly *could* take high potencies, and don't tend to use high potencies much or at all; others don't really "believe in" low potencies (funny! :-) ); others use low potencies only for pathology or very weak patients; then there are those (like me!) who hop between the "camps" pretty freely. My first training and experience was in high, but I've come to like low potencies quite well too, and I heartily agree with what you were taught--resolution takes time, and likely takes repetition too. You need to watch over time...

There's (for instance) one *dis*advantage of low potencies (I was told this by our lecturer who was very experienced at low potency work as well as high, and my own experience seems to very much bear this out) that, due to their broader range of action, you can get a "false positive" response, which may look *just* like a curative process, except that after some time (weeks, months, whatever) the remedy "loses its grip" and stops working and the patient relapses, eventually right back to where they had started, and raising/changing potency does not enable to remedy to begin its work again. The remedy was only palliative, exerted no curative action, and has exhausted its ability to help, and now you need to find a better fit.

Had the remedy been given in high/single dose, you *might* have gone thru a similar process (initially good response which does not follow thru), but more likely the remedy simply wouldn't have acted--high potencies (apparently? usually? ???) require greater specificity.

Shannon

Last edited by jonh; 4th October 2005 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert & Shannon Nelson
Thanks Bajwa,

What leads you to conclude that it is palliation (plus proving) rather than curative--because of the relapse, or ??

Shannon
Dear Shannon,

Surely, because of the relapse.
Thuja has a most violent irritability, jealousy, quarrelsomeness, which is to be shown towards her (close) family members, not to you.
Thuja wants to be alone & takes upon herself fixed ideas, there is no use trying to reason them out of her.

Regards !
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Old 3rd October 2005, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Not sure what to make of this...

Chief complaint is a huge uterine fibroid, tho there are *lots* of other "constitutional" issues too, which this remedy (thuja) is an attempt to also cover (not just the fibroid).

When she took the remedy (daily for several weeks) in 6c, she was initially enthusiastic:
- fibroid much smaller (tho effect lasted only about a day, hence the daily repeat--palliative??)
- feet no longer hurt in the morning (<< walking), and this was a *big* deal (tho that effect too lasted only the day)
- energy much better, feeling good, sleep good

BUT
after a few weeks she realized she had developed irritable bowel-type symptoms (frequent and burning stool), which was becoming increasingly troublesome, so she stopped the remedy, and fibroid and sore feet promptly returned.

Next I gave the same remedy in LM3. This time it had only a mildly helpful effect on energy (okay) and feet (sore, but not as bad), but did not seem to help the fibroid, at least not in the short run (she took it for only about 3 weeks). Also, after about three weeks she suddenly developed a skin lesion on her forearm, not sure what to call it... Maybe a type of wart, sort of flat-dome-shaped, nearly circular, pink). At that point she stopped the remedy. That was about a week ago, and the (?)wart now appears to be flaking/shrinking away, tho still a raised, pink area.

My question: If this were a matter of "externalizing the disease", what degree of internal improvement should I expect to have seen before that occurred? Or was this more likely a proving symptom and the remedy only palliative?
Thanks for all thoughts!

Shannon
Hi Shannon, ia any remedy response analysis teh questions you ahve to ask yourself are:
1. Are these old symptoms?
2. Where on teh chronologival map have these symtpoms occured before in terms of the time when they FIRST appeared?
3. Are these new symptoms?
4. Which system or organ to they belong to?
These questions will give you an idea of HErings Law along with Miasmatic progression.

It is extremely arbitrary to rate improvement based on the "feel good factor". In most instances, a feel good factor is most certainly palliative and suppressive in the long term - which includes producing medicinal (proving) symptoms.

So without the information to the questions above, it would be impossible for anyone of us to tell you what this remedy response is.

But my guess is that Thuja is a partial remedy producing proving symtpoms. It may have been a helpful antimiasmatic to some extent. Thuja has most of the sycotic emotional behaviour that all other sycotic remedies have as well. This is not charactersitic of the remedy, but rather characteristic of the miasmatic presentation.

Well, maybe you can read one of my miasm articles for furthur enlightenment... sorry a post like this is hardly enough!
leela
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