Right, so we have many important corollaries to loose statements:
1. The person prescribing is educated on the principles of classical homeopathy.
2. The person prescribing is competent enough to observe remedy reaction.
3. the person prescribing is aware of differences in potency responses based on the susceptibility and senstivity of the patient.
4. The person concerned or the prescriber is aware of what to do following an accurate interpretation of remedy response.


Without these important aspects to homeopathic prescribing, making loose statements like:
" It is easy to suppress with allopathy, but, you can't do that easily, with homeopathy."
can be potentially quite dangerous.

ANother point is that even a reasonably good practioner can prescribe a palliative remedy over years and believe that the remedy has helped. This is suppression in the long term just the same as allopathy. The disease continues to progress because there was no investigation of miasmatic response to the remedy.

There are standards one can CHOOSE TO abide by as a homeoapth. As I said before its up to the conscience of each practitooner to reach a standard of practice they are comfortable with that will not harm a patient. A neophyte is not expected to make difficult prescriptions without some guidance. There always has to be a balance between conscience and confidence.

__________________
http://www.homeopathy2health.com

agreed. We don't know. A lot more information is needed. Longer follow up. It would be nice if some people would volunteer themselves here and keep the list updated over some years to see if Joe is unique or typical reaction. And so that the results come via direct rather than filtered. (I'll make a sep post to Joe below about my concern about the reliability of information.)
I only feel able to satisfy your curiosity very specifically if I can do so off the public bb/list. If you are curious enuf, register on the bb so as to be able to receive a private message perhaps? Otherwise suffice it to say that I absolutely do not, based on my observation of her, recommend getting a Platina high. It has very serious negatives. The health matter was neither clear cut, nor dreadfully serious since it resolved by cutting back slightly on her dosage, but the psychological issues are serious. They are to Platina by analogy as if a person proving Aurum were getting seriously suicidal, if that comes through as an analogy. But the Aurum person likely would be subjectively down and miserable, and saying "something is wrong, help me. I was feeling less depressed for a while and now I'm worse than ever." The Platina person will go from haughty to less haughty for a while to things beyond haughty--and engaging in behaviour that could result in as much harm as an Aurum low.

Brio
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To Joe De Livera

I'm going to reply in this post to both the most recent reply to me, and also to one that appears on page 5 of the bb thread sequence. Starting with the older one first which begins with a reply to something I wrote and will quote first--it may never have appeared on the List messages:

I want to point out clearly that you reversed my meaning in your interpretation. And came up with a conclusion that is not correctly reflective of what I told you.

I wrote "I doubt" meaning that while not absolutely subject to proof, I would consider it extremely unlikely that his long life and health can be attributed to Arnica herb. (For one thing he had siblings that followed similar practices but who died at young ages. I don't think either the young deaths or the longer life have anything to do with Arnica, but it would be as correct to subscribe the youngest death to Arnica as the oldest one.)

"Can perhaps be attributed" also signifies that the thing is not proved, but indicates that there is a reasonably good chance that it is so. And honestly I don't think there is one chance in a billion that that is so.

I want you to understand clearly that the point I was making had to do with the fact that the use by this very much alive man pretty well proves to me that the material amount in a low potency of Arnica is not going to be deadly even repeatedly taken for a long time since it would take an awful lot to add up to the sprig of herb that might have been chewed from time to time when mountain hiking in Europe, and unlike heavy metals it probably does not accumulate.

I absolutely was not providing this as an example of an arnica success in promoting longevity, nor as an example of arnica causing him to feel well and be vigorous into his senior years.

I wanted to correct this misimpression that you have. I am concerned that reports you may be giving of other successes could also be similarly skewed, both due to your interpretation, and due to the people who may report to you either not reporting clearly or not correcting a misinterpretation you may make. I wanted to be sure that at least in this case i did go back and correct the misinterpretation. And I also want you and others to realize that this sort of misinterpretation can easily occur even with written dialogue. So much more likely might it be to happen in oral communication.

While I repeat that the information I provided does *not* confirm what you are saying, OTOH, I am very glad that you have decided to make your own explorations and to share the experience you have had with us. Even though my information does not confirm anything at all, still, your experience is of great interest to me.

This would be very interesting. I am not sure you can be sure that it is safe for everyone, but people here can decide for themselves whether to try it, whether to continue it for a month, and the results would certainly interest me to read. So would I be interested in long term follow up.

Classical homeopathy plus long time tested variations, such as via Hering and Kent, has roughly a couple hundred years of empirical evidence. I think you are the one on a "see the light" religious mission here with an as yet not well tested theory. And now I'll go to the newer post ...

Again, congratulations, and thank you for sharing your own personal experience with this.

I believe you. And if a person has a "dependency" on any drug I surely think that for it to be on Arnica homeopathic is far better and safer than numerous other possibilities such as sleeping pills and blood pressure med.

Possibly the word "prove" is getting confused here, but as far as making this a wider study I certainly agree that that would be a useful thing. And I personally hope others here do decide to try it and report honestly on the results they get, since I personally would like to know the results. I also doubt that one dose of Arnica would have caused a heart attack.

I think you don't understand the suppression v. palliation v. cure concept.

I'll agree that comparatively speaking long term use of steroids etc. is not good, so that if you get palliation via homeopathy as good or better than via conventional, that is probably a very good thing. However, both conventional and homeopathic can also supress.

Obviously it is done sometimes,as for example using your own favorite, Arnica, as the first option for trauma first aid.

Historically there was a branch of homeopathy that tried the "take this for that" method and it was part of what led to the decline of homeopathy in many countries--along with being pushed out by the pharmaceutical/AMA complex.


Actually the traditional casetaking method seems to work surprisingly well by internet. :)

Do you understand the concept of a Miasm? And that at the deepest curative level homeopathy can act to cure that?

I was not thinking that you were proving Arnica in getting the prostate problem, but rather that it might have been an example of a suppressed symptom (say high blood pressure) going deeper. The deeper something will go is generally consistent with other factors such as heredity or exposure. That is not inconsistent and your statement that it was hereditary does not disprove the idea that it may have been a deeper symptom of a health situation that has been supressed.


May I suggest that you read (or reread) The Science of Homeopathy by George Vithoulkas. And also go back through the Organon itself. This will give the understanding of supression, miasms etc. much better than I could hope to do.

You might also find of interest some of the historical reports on the use of Homeopathy in various epidemics, since you were under the impression that only antibiotics could work for infection.

To take the best of homeopathy and allopathy is laudable, but you may change your ideas of what homeopathy is capable of doing if you read some more in the history. And as well you may get some more knowledge about the past use of 'this for that" in homepathy, which might at least help you to understand why it bothers some people. Perhaps not so much "religion" as "been there done that."

I am happy for you and your friends that you have helped, if it is true that you have never been unsuccessful in your use of homeopathy with anyone. But I am concerned that you may be giving a biased report. As with the discrepancy between what I wrote in the post quoted at the start of this post and how you interpreted it, also quoted above.

Anyhow, I look forward to reading any posts about other people testing out the nightly use of Arnica short term results and long term follow up, if anyone chooses to do that. I don't know where other than that this can really go, because while it is wonderful that you feel good a sample of one is not enough evidence. People reporting directly here would help get rid of the possible misinterpretation or bias that might come if filtered through someone with a particular outlook. (Better still would be a double-blind randomized trial with some taking nightly Arnica 6C and others nightly placebo and then all participantsreporting back--but hard to arrange that via internet!)

I'll be away for a few weeks and so won't be able to reply to anything immediately. Ciao for now,

Brio

I agree with this.

I will amend my statement.

"However I feel it is difficult to suppresss with 'proper' classsical homeopathy."

Murthy

Let's return to the facts: Joe is taking arnica 6c nightly - a minute but still material dose. According to your interpretation (which is also my interpretation and has been around for centuries and so does not represent a new look at repeated doses), Joe has a low susceptibility to arnica. So, to return to a previous question, why doesn't he find a remedy which is more homeopathic to his entire case and cure the chronic disease of which insomnia is but a single symptom?

Joe's stories about his health remind me of the descriptions of arsenic eaters found in Clarke.


Richard Knapp

Because he does not want to or does not feel the need to!

If it were me, I would.

__________________
http://www.homeopathy2health.com

--- Luise Kunkle <sem-pa@bar-do.net> wrote:

> There seems to be some basic misconception in the discussion:

> The "classicals" [sic] seem to assume that the choice for the patients
> is to have either "effective, competent treatment by a very well trained
> and experienced classical homeopath" or the "this for that" treatment.

> This is utopian thinking.

[snip]

>>>>

No, this is an example of a (totally) false dichotomy - rather like
saying as regards to alcohol: "There are abstainers, and there are
raving, lunatic drunks."

Hi Brio,

I do understand your point, and I shouldn't have laughed...
So neither she nor her homeopath are aware of the downside, or is she
taking this now on her own? (I'm in an "overstretched" stretch for the
next week or so, so better not try to deal with the bb right now... My
email, tho, is shannonnelson@tds.net--will that work to talk off-list?)
Shannon

On Jul 12, 2005, at 11:32 PM, homeolist@otherhealth.com wrote:

> ... If you are curious enuf, register on the
> bb so as to be able to receive a private message perhaps? Otherwise
> suffice it to say that I absolutely do not, based on my observation of
> her, recommend getting a Platina high. It has very serious negatives.
> The health matter was neither clear cut, nor dreadfully serious since
> it resolved by cutting back slightly on her dosage, but the
> psychological issues are serious. They are to Platina by analogy as if
> a person proving Aurum were getting seriously suicidal, if that comes
> through as an analogy. But the Aurum person likely would be
> subjectively down and miserable, and saying "something is wrong, help
> me. I was feeling less depressed for a while and now I'm worse than
> ever." The Platina person will go from haughty to less haughty for a
> while to things beyond haughty--and engaging in behaviour that could
> result in as much harm as an Aurum low.
>
> Brio
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> -
>> Brio's Profile: http://www.otherhealth.com/members/brio.html
>> View this thread: Joe and arnica
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brio
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> View this thread: Joe and arnica
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 homeolist@otherhealth.com wrote:

snip
>
> Page 14 Talks on Classical Homeopathy ; G.V.
>
> " *You can't make the person change his level of health with a
> homeopathic prescription. With allopathic prescription you change the
> level.*"
>
> -Question : If you suppress with an inapproppriate homeopathic remedy,
> will that not change their level even if their energy goes down?
>
> George : That will not change the level. -If you suppress, you will see
> the suppression in a while, and then it will come back by itself. But,
> if you don't wait, you will give the wrong prescription. If he says, \"
> I feel worse \", and you give another remedy, and in the evening another
> remedy. This means the wrong kind of prescription. It has to be done for
> a long time. In France or Germany, you can go into a pharmacy and take a
> bottle of Cimex and take it for a long time. This kind of prescription
> you can take with different remedies and you cannot do any harm. You
> take for three months, or one month, 3,4, or 5 remedies everyday in
> different potencies, probably some of them will be close and will do
> something. Kent was talking about that same thing about doctors who
> would prescribe high potencies haphazardly, and too many at the same
> time. There can be real trouble!

This statement and such as these have kept me wondering why in
Germany. where such supposedly harmful prescribing and taking of
several up to very many remedies at the same time has been common,
*really* common, people generally do not seem to be in a worse state
of health than in countries where that has not been the case.

Any ideas?

Regards

Luise

--
One thought to all who, free from doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

I came across this thread which deals with my rather un-Homeopathic use of Arnica in the Wet dose which was first started by Dr Paraki way back in June 2005 which I felt would be of interest to members of this Forum and I decided to reactivate it with this post.

It is now over 4 years since it was first posted and members may be able to re-evaluate the records of my own findings with the response of others, some of whom had used it and recorded their thoughts, some of which were for and some against my own experience in using Arnica in the Wet dose, which I have used nightly since 1996. I started using it as I was unable to take Hytrin which I was prescribed for my urine retention due to my Prostate problem as it dropped my BP by about 15mm which affected me badly as I was unable to even sit up on a chair due to the lack of my Blood Pressure.

It was a chance discovery that lead me to take Arnica as I was compelled to stop Hytrin and change over to the standard Homeopathic remedies used for this ailment like Conium and Sabal Serrulata (Saw Palmetto) but they were only marginally helpful. At that time I had grazed my shin on some object and the skin had peeled off causing some pain and bleeding. I took Arnica 30 in the Dry dose (pellets) and discovered within the hour that I was able to pee without restriction. This was indeed a serendipitous discovery on my part and I used Arnica right up to 2002 when I was forced to have surgery for my Prostate in the US as I was suffering from inability to pass urine. Suffice it to state that my daily use of Arnica 30c for 6 years up to that time and now later post surgery up to 13 years, gave me ample time to evaluate its reaction on my body and I continued to use it nightly as I now do.

I have reported in other threads on this Forum that I used Arnica 30c in the Dry pellets immediately after my Prostatectomy and refused the Morphine that was connected to my IV line to the consternation of both the nursing staff in the Ohio State University Hospital in Columbus OH and my surgeon to whom I had to give a written waiver that I would not hold them responsible for the pain or the shut down of my bodily functions which they felt would be inevitable by my refusal to use Morphine. For the record the dose I used was just 2 pellets sublingually every 2 hours on the first day which I extended to 3 hours on the second day and 4 hours on the third day after surgery. I have also used this same dosage after minor surgery for an Inguinal Hernia last year and I can categorically state that it is by far better than the pain killers including Morphine that are currently used post surgery.

I would like to add here that my own findings do not coincide with the lecture of Dr George Vithoulkas available on Video on his website where he belittled the use of Arnica before or after surgery which he stated was just a waste of time. I do hope that he will use Arnica as I have done if ever he has to have surgery in the future when he will have to change his stance. It is far more effective than both the Morphine that they use as the analgesic after major surgery (Prostatectomy) in the US and the Diclofenac Sodium (Voltaren 100mg) they use here in Sri Lanka after my Inguinal Hernia Repair surgery.

I continued to use Arnica 30c nightly ever after and have also experimented with the lower potency of both 3c and 6c in the Wet dose but right now I take the 30c in the Wet dose nightly as I find that this potency is best for daily use.

Today after over 13 years of using Arnica I believe I am qualified to pontificate on the benefits that can accrue to anyone using Arnica in the manner that I have pioneered. My BP continues to remain even below the original level of 120/80 and it is usually about 5mm below this level. My pulse is <65 at rest and my Lipid Profile is well within the accepted limits.

Many who meet me refuse to believe that I am all of 4 score years as they invariably estimate my age at 60 years. I do not have any ache or pain in my body at all and my general resistance to colds and coughs is excellent, which I can only attribute to the nightly dose of Arnica that I have taken for the last 13 years.

I have encouraged many to use Arnica in the manner that I do and I give a bottle of spring water which I activate with just 2 drops of Arnica 30c. I would like to place on record that I have not derived any financial reward for treating my patients as I am convinced that the good God rewards me with good health which I feel is the greatest reward that one can have at my advanced age. I would like to also mention here that I am actively involved in my family owned business and drive myself to work daily as I have done for the last 60 years. I am singularly blessed with 3 sons 2 of whom are working with me and it is as a result of their support that I am able to devote more time to my Hobby Homeopathy.

I believe that I have made some contribution to the progress of this science as I do not subscribe to the Classical tenet of "Single remedy to treat the totality of all the symptoms presented by the patient". The classical homeopaths on this and other Forums that I used to visit labelled me a maverick and also coined the term "Joepathy" to derisively describe the therapy I use which I believe was motivated perhaps due to jealousy on their part. However when it was discovered that my Joepathy did indeed help patients in a manner that their combined classical efforts could not equate, these classical homeopaths resorted to hounding me on the Forums I used to visit, including this Forum which I then decided to boycott till a few weeks ago when I felt impelled to record my own experience in treating Chikungunya which is also a virus borne disease with Gelsemium 30 in the Wet dose which I felt would also serve as a Prophylactic against the current H1N1 virus epidemic in both the US and the UK. I have been giving Gelsemium 30 to many clients some of whom are in my organization and although this H1N1 virus is now rampant in Sri Lanka today, I have not had any reports of any infection from those who take it about twice weekly in the Wet dose and I can presume that it is as effective to provide prophylaxis against the H1N1 virus as it was against the CKG virus.

I would urge anyone who reads this post and has the patience to perhaps also read the 8 pages of this thread that precede it, to follow my example and take Arnica just once nightly on a test basis and experience the feeling of health which no other drug, tonic or remedy can replicate. Almost everyone who takes my advice has confirmed that they experienced an unusual feeling of wellness on the morning after their first dose which they have never experienced before.

I shall be glad if those who take it will please report their response on this Forum for purposes of record.

If anyone wishes to have more information on Arnica I would suggest they visit the link below:

Arnica the Miracle Remedy --- Case Records :: homeopathyandmore.com


Joe De Livera
Colombo
Sri Lanka

__________________
Joe De Livera
Colombo
Sri Lanka