Yes i agree.

But I have yet to find any patient who has the "anything goes" standard in their families or personal life, tell me that they have found true happiness or fulfilment, as against those following "righteous behaviour". Somehoe the acts of "anything goes" commission seem to have had a more devastating effect on health (emotional, spiritual and physical) than acts of "righteous" ommission. Don't you think so?

Thanks,
Leela

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I read the (critical) article to say that up to 30% were "non-orthodox" types, not a majority. If I cared about the article, the first thing I would do is ask the author to support her numbers. Then, if they could be agreed upon, we could begin talking about interpretations and about all the things that were left out. By the way, the movie does not attempt to hide the fact that Kinsey experimented with homosexuality.


Richard Knapp

Hi RIchard,
What do you suggest could have been 'left out'?
Someone sent me a private mail telling me about how talking about sexual issues were a complete taboo at one point in history. Bu do you think accepting or validating Kinsey findings/report is the way to deal with sexual taboo?
I think Maturity and broadmindedness is. And blaming the Church for it is only escaping from that.

Do realise that I'm not setting up any of these questions against anyone's point of view. I'm seeking varied opinions about this which is helping me get a perspective.
One of the difficulties I've had with case analysis was to understand how people had so much of devastating trauma in their history - how much of it was part of teh culture and how much of it wasn't in each individual case.

HOllywood seems to give a very onesided picture to us in the East about Western culture. David once told me - just realise that that is not what happens in typical Americal homes - we have the saying here "That's Hollywood".

Also realise that being a Christian in India, I am automatically categorized as a person who adopts the "Western CUlture", and has loose moral values. When I mean "Western CUlture" I mean Hollywood culture, becasue that is all we're exposed to here.
If the average opinion in the US isthat India is a land of Elephants and jungles, poverty and diseases. Well, the reciprocal Image many Indians have of the US is Hollywood and the TV serials we're exposed to.
I wish that would change both ways.. :)
Welcome to India anyone.....
Dr. leela

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Lisa, thanks, I went through all the links below. It gives me a wider perspective. I too find the whole thing thought provoking, to say the least, especially that the whole research seems to focus on abnormal sexual behaviour and practices (as acceptable) rather than the widely different experiences in the 'normal' spectrum.
Leela

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Leela, That is what I remembered when I learned about Kinsey; that his focus was on the outer fringes of sexuality -- the deviations from what we've always known and thought to be the norm in society. Having said that, if yu look back in Roman or Greek history -- or others - you find a lot of 'deviant' sexual behaviou. Remembering that 'deviant' means "differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society."

Are you looking for personal accounts of what people think of the effects of Kinsey's research - how it's afffected them and shaped their views of sexuality? That's a deep question - and the topic has certainly made me stop and wonder how it's seeped into my own thinking.
Lisa

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Carroll Dunham

Sorry Leela, in my last post (which I posted in a rush) I meant to qualify what I was trying to say about Greek, Roman sex-history. I believe (if I'm not mistaken) there were some forms of sexual behaviour back then that were considered part of the norm of society -- that we would now consider to be 'deviant' or 'risque'.

So, in a sense, I can understand Kinsey's broad thinking when he started to research sex. However, when your delve into it more - and learn about his own appetites - his methods of extracting data (very dubious and some downright disgusting) - it definitely mades me question his motives. And it certainly makes me question the validity of any of his 'findings'.

It would be interesting if a broad study were done - using a broad cross section - a fair sample.

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"The significance of a fact is measured by the capacity of the observer."
Carroll Dunham

Well, Kinsey's point, if I take him correctly, is that the so-called abnormal behaviors are, in fact, normal, that is, commonplace.

Richard Knapp

Hi Lisa,
RIght on both counts as to what I'm thinking.
There are 2 aspects about this that concerns me (as a homeopath):

1. On the Social front, we seem to see on one hand, that any small act of molestation (Eg: the Michael Jackson trial; Molestation/abuse by 'gay' priests in the US) Have become major social issues that have everybody up in arms and pontificating. Yet here is a person actually sanctioned by the government to collect data which is validated and seeps into social/cultural acceptance when he used used questionable methods (that today would have had him neck deep in lawsuits) and unapologetic deviant personal behaviour. I don't think science or statistics could justify this, could it?

2. What is of even graver concern is that people influenced by such information begin to accept this as the norm rather than the exception. The fabric of society begins to fall apart. It results in any number of our patients going through terrible trauma as they accept the results of abnormal/deviant behaviour perpetuated through "choice" of what is "anything goes" rather than what is "right". It is the beginning of many a pathology that is often (emotionally) incurable. The trauma of the soul.

Sexual trauma violates the soul.

Having said this, I dont' at any point claim to be someone who has always made the right choices.
The emotional and physical repercussions and consequences have been devastating and far reaching due to wrong choices under the mistaken guise that "anything goes", in my life experience and that of my patients, I'm not surprised that there is a critical bias against this man and his "scientific" studies and statistics.

I"m still waiting to hear about what Richard thinks may have been left out.
leela

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Hi Leela,

I don't want to get into an analysis of the article criticizing Kinsey versus what Kinsey said and I think you may not want that either so that is a relief. What I think is that many things that humans do which are condemned by our "cultures" are, in fact, done out of love. This can only be seen by taking the soul's perspective. Trouble comes when the order of love is not respected and when we project our own shadow characteristics on the another. An example of the order of love is when a man and woman love each other and live together with their children. An example of a violation of the order occurs when the couple splits up and the custodial parent treats the other parent as though he/she didn't exist. Breakups happen. It is the exclusion of one parent, not honoring that parent that injures the order of love.

In this case, the child may unconsciously attempt to bring the parents back together by undermining any relationship the custodial parent has with another lover. If the custodial parent is a woman, for example, and the child is a girl, there is a fair chance that the girl will use her sexuality to do that undermining. The new lover is seen as evil by his "culture" if he pays any attention at all to the girl's flirtations, which he might do if the woman is not taking his love and this is possible because the woman is already excluding the father of the child. The girl's motives, if they are discovered, may cause her to be seen as evil. Both were acting from love but anyone who is blinded by the cultural biases around sex cannot see that. If the love can't be seen, the injuries cannot be forgiven and the proper order of love restored. Kinsey helps us scrape off a little of the taboo so we may, if we choose, see more deeply into the dynamics of love. It is, in my opinion, a fascinating and worthwhile occupation.

If this is of interest to you, may I suggest a study of the work of Bert Hellinger. He is a family systemics therapist (and a former Catholic priest.)


Richard Knapp

Dear Richard,
Precisely.
I think we need to understand these variations of "normal" sexual behaviour which happen for various emotional reasons, and mostly misguided love or misplaced good intentions. One at some point realises ones mistake and takes remedieal measures. Forgiveness and God's Grace play a major part. We all make these mistakes - whatever the culture.

On the other hand, accepting that paedophilia, unaccountable and irresponsible promiscuity, multiple sexual partners, molestation, etc, and as a result pronography and repeated abortion, as acceptable sexual behaviour (everyone does it) and commonplace, cannot be socailly justified. These actions do not involve love, they arise out of pure human selfishness which end up as addictions and diseased mental states.

The social need is to overcome selfishness and move towards true love for the good of all. Accepting something like the "Kinsey Report" a "norm" leaves us in social, spiritual limbo.
The social need is also to move towards maturity and broadmindedness on sexual matters - so that what is normal and healthy can be talked about freely and promoted.

I think my being able to have this discussion on this board is a relfection of that.
dr. Leela

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