Hi All,

I have wrangled with this issue, theory and practice, ever since the sixties.

Here is my tuppence worth of experience concerning one aspect: obesity/calories/exercise --

Some people are fat/gain weight because their caloric intake is more than their use of calories. For them eating less and exercising more is the reasonable and successful way.

With other people the gain of weight, sometimes up to real obesity, is due to other factors. Eating less does not result in losing weight but instead results in the body turning calory-requiring activity down - they feel hungry, have no energy -- there may be detriment to health.

It is quite easy to find out whether you belong to group 1 or 2.

Go on a *full* fast for 3 or 4 days - i.e. no calory intake at all!

Group one will after say 2, at most 3 days stop feeling hungry, feel great (if a little "heady, euphorical"), lose weight at an immense rate. Those people can stay with that "diet" for up to 3 weeks without any detriment to health. They can also instead go on a low calory/much exercise regimen.

Group 2 will never stop feeling hungry, instead their hunger will increase and be terrible if they keep it up. They will feel bad, tired, and their weight loss will be minimal comparatively. For them fasting is poison and low calory diets quite probably also.

So far there has been little differentiation made between those 2 groups. Without such differentiation there will be no chance of reliable findings from any kind of research, IMO.

Group 2 is, of course, the problem group. There are probably many different reasons for belonging to that group. I know of no research done to find out more. Thyroid is generally NOT the answer.

Some one-sided diets (like Atkins and many, many others) may work for one or the other of the subgroups of group 2.

Losing weight and *feeling good while doing so* seems to be the criterium for a *good* reducing diet. IMHO.

Regards

Luise

One of the causes of excess fat or inability to reduce it is that the fatty tissues are often a reservoir where toxins and poisons are "safely" stored. Loosing the fat liberates them in the blood stream causing toxic symptoms. That is why your metabolism does not allow the toxic patient to loose fat and if you do, then you feel bad.

At least this is my experience.

So in cases where there is an inability to loose weight, I consider the patient as being loaded with undesirable substances and my first approach is drainage + detox.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

That's true, a diet on which you feel starving and miserable is a failure, because no one will stay on it. That's the beauty of Atkins *for me* .... I never feel like going off it because I always feel fine with what I'm eating and never hungry or deprived in any way. Other people don't like it and for them, it failed.

Either that, or they were following the imaginary Atkins plan that the media loves to write about and websites like the one posted earlier like to debunk - I never know whether to laugh or cry at these exposes of Atkins that set up these nice straw men and knock them over. I want to laugh because it's so silly, but I also want to cry for people like me who might be helped by Atkins, who read them and think that's an accurate description of the plan.

Reminds me, in fact, of all the "quackwatchers" on homeopathy. I remember one time when Dateline did a feature on homeopathy, in which they.... STOP THE PRESSES!... revealed that when the medicines were analyzed they contained NOTHING BUT WATER AND ALCOHOL!

Atkins isn't appealing to everyone nor will it help everyone, but there is no set limit of carbohydrates that you eat, ever, after the initial two weeks, and the only foods you give up permanently are transfats, white flour, and white sugar and its cousins like high fructose corn syrup. You also don't count fiber in your carb counts, so there is no problem getting in plenty of fruits and vegetables without going over even a fairly low carb level, as long as you avoid the starchiest ones like corn.

Which is a good thing, given that the Atkins plan requires you to START with 3-4 cups of vegetables every single day at the most restrictive phase (not the two cups the website claims), and then after those initial two weeks, immediately add in another cup ... and let me tell you, that bare minimum 3 cups of veggies is about 2 and three quarter cups more than I was eating pre-Atkins.

The next thing you add in is low glycemic fruits like berries and melon, and nuts and seeds. (Actually, maybe you get to add in wine and spirits at this point; I don't drink alcohol so I'm not sure.) Then you add more veggies, which along with the berries and melon is about, oh, forty million times more fruit and veggies than I ever ate pre-Atkins, and the same for nearly everyone I know who has really done the plan as written, instead of imaginary Atkins where all you eat is eggs, bacon, and steak.

The website said you can't eat bran, but bran is almost entirely fiber so it doesn't have any effect on your carb levels.

It said there is no limit on how much protein or fat you can eat, which is a lie. There are no "free foods" on Atkins, none at all. While the foundation of the plan is controlling cravings, appetite, blood sugar, and energy levels by controlling carbohydrate intake, the POINT of this is to enable you to eat sensibly and healthily so you can feel good and lose or maintain weight. If you are JUST controlling carbs, you're not doing Atkins, you're doing imaginary Atkins.

Nor do you get a license to eat "as much as you want." Dr. Atkins gave caloric guides for weight loss as well as maintenance, relative to your body weight - I find that I lose weight eating around 10 times my body weight in calories. In the beginning, I lost easily eating 12 times my body weight in calories. 10-12 times body weight in calories is in fact where he said to start, and to cut back from there if you didn't lose weight. He also stated repeatedly that we are to eat until we're satisfied, never stuffed, and to never overeat.

The website states:

"If one were to consume a fruit and vegetable at each meal and snack this would tabulate to upwards of 85 grams of carbohydrate, the upper end of the "maintenance phase" limit on the Atkins plan. Forget about having any healthy whole grains, legumes or milk products for the rest of the day. This recommendation would be extremely difficult to adhere to even on the maintenance phase of the Atkins plan."

This is idiotically wrong, as I eat one or two servings of veggies and fruits with every meal, and often as a snack too, and I only eat 35 grams of carbs a day (we don't count fiber in our carb levels, which means a big old deduction right there... WITH fiber I'm eating more like 55-60 grams of carbs).

But more, the entire premise of this statement is false. There is no set limit of carbohydrate intake at any point in the plan, other than the first two weeks. After that, the level of carbohydrates is individually arrived at. Active people at their goal weight can easily eat as much as 100-150 grams of carbs, and athletes more. Since you just keep increasing carbs until your weight starts to go up, and then back down 5 grams to find your own individualized level, it's impossible to pick some arbitrary number and say "this is the amount Atkins recommends." There is no such number.

If you feel good and maintain your weight, there's nothing stopping you from eating FIVE HUNDRED grams of carbs a day. My normal weight brother does Atkins and eats whole grain homemade bread every day of his life - whole grains are the last rung of the "carbohydrate ladder." It's true a lot of us can't get there while losing weight, but so what? No one actually requires grains to live, and lots of people object to diets high in grain who have no connection to Atkins and are not talking about weight loss. And if you want to eat grains, Dr. Atkins won't stop you - like I said, they're on the plan if you can eat them without them triggering cravings or making you gain weight. And if they DO trigger cravings and make you gain weight, why would anyone want me to eat them?

The geniuses at this website continue:

"There is no limit on the Atkins plan to the amount of protein, fats and red meats one can consume. There is little else to eat other than these foods with such a significant carbohydrate restriction."

This is "imaginary Atkins." There IS a limit, and there is a vast cornucopia of foods we eat other than protein, fats, and red meats (which are themselves proteins and fats, so I'm not quite sure why it got its own mention).

Then it goes on with what I think is the most dangerous part of the "fake Atkins" phenomenon, the one that does far and away the most terrible harm:

"A recent research study conducted by the North American Association for he Study of Obesity showed that Atkins dieters cut their normal daily caloric intake by 1,000 calories while following the Atkins plan. Additional research has shown that during the ongoing weight loss phase, Atkins dieters consumed only 1500 calories a day on average, much less than their previous caloric intake. Furthermore, in the research study presented in The Annals of Internal Medicine above, scientists found that in both the low-fat diet group and in the Atkins diet group, calorie consumption was reduced as compared to the participant's previous diets. This only goes to show what we've known all along as the bottom line in weight loss: calories eaten must be less than calories burned for weight loss to occur. With so little food choices on the Atkins diet, it's easy to see why people eat fewer calories and therefore lose weight. There's nothing magical behind the hype about low carb plans."

Why the HELL do you think that we cut our calories when we go on Atkins?
BECAUSE WE AREN'T BEING DRIVEN OUT OF OUR FRIGGING MINDS WITH A BLOOD SUGAR ROLLER COASTER, CRAVINGS, AND ENDLESS HUNGER! This IS the damn magic! And it's the exact "magic" that Dr. Atkins said would happen. This insistence that "calories don't matter" is not from Dr. Atkins. It's from imaginary Atkins.

It is true that there seems to be a small metabolic advantage in high fat, low carb diets, in that most people studied who eat them lose more weight while eating slightly higher calories than those on high carb, low fat diets. But this is often temporary and the success of the Atkins plan is not predicated on this happening. The ability to have a functioning appetstat, to be free of cravings, to have high energy levels, THIS is the "magic" that makes Atkins work for those of us for whom it works.

As to "so little food choices," these people are either lying through their teeth or so stupid they didn't do one iota of research on the actual plan before being so kind as to form, and share, their opinion on it. I find that my life is SO much richer now, and my food choices so much more varied, now that I've found an eating plan that really works for me. Also, eating a lot of carbs appears to have deadened my taste buds, because even though I did not eat sugar pre-Atkins, I was still unaware of how "sweet" naturally sweet things were. Today, a fresh tomato in my mouth tastes impossibly sweet. Cream tastes sweet. Nuts taste sweet. Almond butter tastes like DESSERT to me.

It is a ludicrous lie to suggest that by giving up white flour, white sugar and related sweeteners, and high glycemic fruits and veggies, you are so severely limiting yourself that you literally CANNOT put together a year's worth of satisfying meals. I'm closing in on year two and I haven't been bored yet, and I have far more diversity in my diet than I used to, when I pretty much ate a bagel and cream cheese for breakfast, and pasta or pizza for lunch and dinner, every bloody day of my life.

I just get down on my knees every night in gratitude that I actually READ THE BOOK before judging the Atkins plan - and didn't dismiss it based on the silliness I see in magazine articles, on the web, and coming out of the mouths of people who were on "imaginary Atkins."

Again - it's not for everyone and I'm not suggesting it is. But if you're going to object to it, object to the actual plan, not the imaginary version. Straw men are easy to knock down, it's true, but lies and manipulation never made anyone healthier, or helped them make better decisions.

Christie Keith

I was interested to read the long post on the Atkin's plan for Weight Reduction and would like to share with readers a Homeopathic Remedy that I "discovered" which has been in use for over a century as a remedy for Gastric reflux conditions, which also reduces weight.

Some months ago I discovered that the Biochemic Natrum Phosphoricum (Nat Phos) 6x which I had given a few friends who came to me complaining of acidity after meals, also had a most unusual reaction on their weight. They discovered that they shed their weight by between 2 to 3 kg per month, on their normal daily regimen of eating and exercise. They informed me that they passed more urine than usual and that they felt much lighter in their bodies in a few days and were happy to be able to use their old garments which they had been compelled to discard over the years.

I have recorded the loss of weight in 2 individuals one a man weighing 135kg who reduced his weight down to 105 in 5 months and another woman 92 kg who reduced her weight by 13kg since early January. I have daily contact with this woman as she works in my organization. She is now quite comfortable with her weight and I have reduced her dosage to just 1 tablet after lunch and dinner. The reduction of her bodily proportions is remarkable and many of her friends are now using this remedy to reduce their weight. It has also been used throughout the world by persons who are overweight and the general success ratio is 90%. Coffee, cola drinks and preserved meats like ham, bacon and suasages antidote this remedy. No other drugs may be taken when it is used as it seems to be very sensitive to them and does not reduce weight.

My discovery may be considered as unbelievable but it is indeed true as anyone who is overweight can discover for him or her self. The use of Nat Phos 6x on a daily basis is quite safe as it constitutes a concentration of only 1/1Millionth of the salt Sodium Phosphate. It promotes Peristalysis in the stomach and gut thereby reducing the build up of acidity in the stomach which leads to heart burn and this may perhaps be the secret of its ability to reduce weight. It has been in use for many years as the ultimate remedy for acidity especially after a heavy meal but it has never been used, as far as I know, to reduce weight. The dose is 2 tablets Nat Phos 6x taken twice daily.

It is possible that my discovery may eventually be considered as an important milestone in the Materia Medica of Homeopathic Remedies for the treatment of Obesity and I would recommend that those who use this simple remedy will please post their observations on their weight loss on this Forum.

Luise

Group 2 are diseased people.If they diet aggressively they end up fainting .

Obesity causes are Heriditary ,in women harmonal imbalance causing irregular periods .Even though we may find thyroid tests are with in normal limits ,they do suffer from sub clincal thyroid diseases .Even hough thyroid function tests are with in normal limits ,their Haemoglobin levels are lower .

Many times treating them with medicines like Thyroidinum, Carcinosin, Medorrhinum, Kalicarb etc depending on their symptoms with higher potency and repeating at long interval say 2-3 months gap helps reducing obesity.Treatment is prolonged one .Lesser the age better the prognosis.

With Good Wishes

Ramachandra,
Hyderabad,INDIA