>
>>But how does the "popper connection" explain cases occurring after
>>transfusions and in people who have *not* used them?
>
>
>What is the health of these people who got transfusions and became ill?
>How many cases like this are there? Who are they?

When they talk about cases after blood transfusion - did they just
test positive for HIV so they thought they would get AIDS

How many truly showed symptoms of Acquired AutoImmune Deficiency
Syndrome after a blood transfusion?

Or did they have Tcells drop - many reasons for this in healthy people



http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/jlwar.htm

Ryan, a hemophiliac who contracted the virus through a blood
transfusion, died of complications of AIDS in Riley Hospital for
Children, said Dr. Martin Kleiman, the youth's physician. He would
not elaborate. [Emphasis added.](15)

What this indicates is that censors intervened to prevent the print
media and Ryan's doctor from mentioning bleeding. I related these
things to Peter Duesberg, who was most interested. Duesberg in turn
told molecular biology graduate student Bryan Ellison, who took the
bull by the horns and contacted the Hemophilia Foundation of Indiana.
The people there knew Ryan White very well, and confirmed that
hemophilia itself was his major health problem and the cause of his
death. In a jointly-written article Duesberg and Ellison give the
following account:

Hemophilia has always been a fatal condition. This has only been
partly alleviated by recent medical advances. Not only are blood
transfusions still frequently needed, but blood clotting factors used
by hemophiliacs today are somewhat immunosuppressive themselves.
Interestingly, the controlled epidemiological study of hemophiliacs,
cited above, found evidence to support the idea that hemophilia may
be an inherently immune-deficient condition on its own. In the case
of Ryan White, now often cited as an example of an AIDS death, the
Hemophilia Foundation of Indiana has confirmed that his death was due
to such complications as liver failure and internal bleeding,
conditions that typically result from hemophilia itself. Indeed,
White already had a severe case of hemophilia, ultimately requiring
clotting factor therapy every day. He also underwent daily AZT
therapy, the dangers of which are reviewed below.(16)

Robert Root-Bernstein's Rethinking AIDS
http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/damnlies.shtml
What does Root-Bernstein hypothesize is suddenly causing widespread
immune collapse among so many people? No new killer microbe is
necessary, he asserts and he makes his case painstakingly; this
book's thoroughness does not necessarily make for fun or easy
reading. Through case study after case study, medical citation after
medical citation, he shows that the major risk groups for AIDS all
have multiple immunosuppressive behaviors or risks that do not
require the hypothesis of a single new cause. Multiple blood exposure
to semen; the internal damage caused by anal sex and sex practices
such as "fisting" which expanded greatly throughout the gay community
in the 1970s and '80s; multiple blood transfusions; anesthetics and
surgery; the overuse of antibiotics, opiates and nitrate drugs;
severe malnutrition and exposure to infections such as
cytomegalovirus and various sexually transmitted diseases, which are
just as present in AIDS patients as HIV; all of these are known to be
immunosuppressive or to expose the body to the risk of the multiple
concurrent infections that characterize AIDS.

On Sep 10, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

>>> But how does the "popper connection" explain cases occurring after
>>> transfusions and in people who have *not* used them?
>>
>>
>> What is the health of these people who got transfusions and became
>> ill?
>> How many cases like this are there? Who are they?
>
> When they talk about cases after blood transfusion - did they just
> test positive for HIV so they thought they would get AIDS

Nope. Read the article snippets I sent.
>
> How many truly showed symptoms of Acquired AutoImmune Deficiency
> Syndrome after a blood transfusion?

Numbers, I have no idea. But the connection was made thru
observation--initially it was because of a number of infected
hemophiliacs. It was not arrived at thru theory.

The factors mentioned in these next paragraphs--the lurid references to
homosexuals' sex practices etc.--may indeed be factors in further
increasing susceptibility to the HIV infection. In the early days of
the US epidemic these theories were very popular because initially all
of the cases were in gay men. That has long, long, long since stopped
being the case, and those factors are not relevant in great numbers of
cases.

But, I'm tired of this, and I'm going to let this argument go--again.
I have to do other things.
Shannon
>
> Or did they have Tcells drop - many reasons for this in healthy people
>
>
>
> http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/jlwar.htm
>
> Ryan, a hemophiliac who contracted the virus through a blood
> transfusion, died of complications of AIDS in Riley Hospital for
> Children, said Dr. Martin Kleiman, the youth's physician. He would not
> elaborate. [Emphasis added.](15)
>
> What this indicates is that censors intervened to prevent the print
> media and Ryan's doctor from mentioning bleeding. I related these
> things to Peter Duesberg, who was most interested. Duesberg in turn
> told molecular biology graduate student Bryan Ellison, who took the
> bull by the horns and contacted the Hemophilia Foundation of Indiana.
> The people there knew Ryan White very well, and confirmed that
> hemophilia itself was his major health problem and the cause of his
> death. In a jointly-written article Duesberg and Ellison give the
> following account:
>
> Hemophilia has always been a fatal condition. This has only been
> partly alleviated by recent medical advances. Not only are blood
> transfusions still frequently needed, but blood clotting factors used
> by hemophiliacs today are somewhat immunosuppressive themselves.
> Interestingly, the controlled epidemiological study of hemophiliacs,
> cited above, found evidence to support the idea that hemophilia may be
> an inherently immune-deficient condition on its own. In the case of
> Ryan White, now often cited as an example of an AIDS death, the
> Hemophilia Foundation of Indiana has confirmed that his death was due
> to such complications as liver failure and internal bleeding,
> conditions that typically result from hemophilia itself. Indeed, White
> already had a severe case of hemophilia, ultimately requiring clotting
> factor therapy every day. He also underwent daily AZT therapy, the
> dangers of which are reviewed below.(16)
>
> Robert Root-Bernstein's Rethinking AIDS
> http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/damnlies.shtml
> What does Root-Bernstein hypothesize is suddenly causing widespread
> immune collapse among so many people? No new killer microbe is
> necessary, he asserts and he makes his case painstakingly; this book's
> thoroughness does not necessarily make for fun or easy reading.
> Through case study after case study, medical citation after medical
> citation, he shows that the major risk groups for AIDS all have
> multiple immunosuppressive behaviors or risks that do not require the
> hypothesis of a single new cause. Multiple blood exposure to semen;
> the internal damage caused by anal sex and sex practices such as
> "fisting" which expanded greatly throughout the gay community in the
> 1970s and '80s; multiple blood transfusions; anesthetics and surgery;
> the overuse of antibiotics, opiates and nitrate drugs; severe
> malnutrition and exposure to infections such as cytomegalovirus and
> various sexually transmitted diseases, which are just as present in
> AIDS patients as HIV; all of these are known to be immunosuppressive
> or to expose the body to the risk of the multiple concurrent
> infections that characterize AIDS.
>
>

On Sep 10, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> [...]
>
> Shannon, you have not looked at the detailed exposure of their
> 'research' and propaganda and many of us have. We know both sides.
> You don't.

True enough, and I'll try to read a bit more.
Problem is, each time I've *tried* (and I admit it hasn't been much, so
far) I get frustrated enough by parts of the arguments that I find
something that seems more useful to read. But I suppose I should have
another go.

On Sep 10, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:
> When they talk about cases after blood transfusion - did they just
> test positive for HIV so they thought they would get AIDS

What you need to understand about HIV is that there are several
phases of infection. The first phase is very short, like a small
infection with a fever, which can be mistaken for a cold - and the
2nd stage can be any number of days, weeks or *years* - in which the
virus remains in the body without causing visible symptoms apart from
a small change in some blood level readings. It is "dormant". This is
the stage at which people test positive to HIV but do not have
obvious active disease. It can last indefinitely in a healthy person.
Later the virus can be triggered into the active replication phase
and that's when the blood system is attacked and the immune system
is suppressed due to loss of blood products - so that all that is
left is essentially the cellular immune response involving Th-1
cytokines. This means the antibody system (which involves Th-2
cytokines and which usually takes care of many kinds of infections)
is not working, and infections can occur unless the Th-1 cytokines
can help. Still later on (assuming no treatment or suppression) the
blood cells are so destroyed that the Th-2 immune system is
completely overcome and nonfunctional. Nothing is there to stop
infections that normally would be resisted easily. In fact zero
antibodies are produced in late stage, so that the infected system
can not even make antibodies to the HIV virus. (And most tests for it
rely on looking for antibody to HIV - not looking for HIV itself).

So if someone quite healthy gets HIV from a blood transfusion there
is a good chance they will be in dormant phase with no symptoms for a
long time. But they will make antibodies to HIV and those can be
measured - making a positive HIV test.
And if a woman like that nurses a baby - the baby will also get HIV
and may well die from it.

Do not read that book of junk!
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

And Irene are also spouting what has never been proven.

Sounds like the same when fundamentalists write that books are of the
devil when they haven't even read the book

Sheri


At 02:58 AM 9/11/2008, you wrote:

>On Sep 10, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:
>>When they talk about cases after blood transfusion - did they just
>>test positive for HIV so they thought they would get AIDS
>
>What you need to understand about HIV is that there are several
>phases of infection. The first phase is very short, like a small
>infection with a fever, which can be mistaken for a cold - and the
>2nd stage can be any number of days, weeks or *years* - in which the
>virus remains in the body without causing visible symptoms apart from
>a small change in some blood level readings. It is "dormant". This is
>the stage at which people test positive to HIV but do not have
>obvious active disease. It can last indefinitely in a healthy person.
>Later the virus can be triggered into the active replication phase
>and that's when the blood system is attacked and the immune system
>is suppressed due to loss of blood products - so that all that is
>left is essentially the cellular immune response involving Th-1
>cytokines. This means the antibody system (which involves Th-2
>cytokines and which usually takes care of many kinds of infections)
>is not working, and infections can occur unless the Th-1 cytokines
>can help. Still later on (assuming no treatment or suppression) the
>blood cells are so destroyed that the Th-2 immune system is
>completely overcome and nonfunctional. Nothing is there to stop
>infections that normally would be resisted easily. In fact zero
>antibodies are produced in late stage, so that the infected system
>can not even make antibodies to the HIV virus. (And most tests for it
>rely on looking for antibody to HIV - not looking for HIV itself).
>
>So if someone quite healthy gets HIV from a blood transfusion there
>is a good chance they will be in dormant phase with no symptoms for a
>long time. But they will make antibodies to HIV and those can be
>measured - making a positive HIV test.
>And if a woman like that nurses a baby - the baby will also get HIV
>and may well die from it.
>
>Do not read that book of junk!
>Namaste,
> Irene
>--
>Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
>P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
>www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
>"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sheri,
Just a (more or less, hopefully, but maybe not) final (from me) thought
on this, is that I think it's important that people not use the lists
to promulgate views which are not part of homeopathy. To bring them
up, I have no trouble with; there's lots of interesting material out
there, and you bring us quite a lot of good stuff. But to push it the
way you have been I think is just not a good thing for the following
reasons:
1) This is a *homeopathy* list, and the views you are so
energetically pushing in this thread are most emphatically not ones
held by the majority of homeopaths. (I realize that they are held by
some.)
2) This is advice which *does* carry personal danger for many: if
it's wrong, it carries danger for any contacts of AIDS patents; and
even if it were right, it carries the danger of putting homeopaths at
odds with the broader medical community, over an issue which is NOT
HOMEOPATHY, and is nearly irrelevant to any practice of homeopathy.
(Except that, since I think the viewpoint is wrong, I shudder to think
of it being given to patients!).
3) It gets really, really boring for those who are here for the
purpose of learning about *homeopathy*.

I think you've made your point, that you believe the point of view put
forth by the book, and you think we all should read it.

I think I've made my point, that if one is in a position wherethe truth
of the thing actively *matters*, they'll be well advised to do some
broader reading.
Shannon

On Sep 11, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> And Irene are also spouting what has never been proven.
>
> Sounds like the same when fundamentalists write that books are of the
> devil when they haven't even read the book
>
> Sheri
>
>
> At 02:58 AM 9/11/2008, you wrote:
>
>> On Sep 10, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote:
>>> When they talk about cases after blood transfusion - did they just
>>> test positive for HIV so they thought they would get AIDS
>>
>> What you need to understand about HIV is that there are several
>> phases of infection. The first phase is very short, like a small
>> infection with a fever, which can be mistaken for a cold - and the
>> 2nd stage can be any number of days, weeks or *years* - in which the
>> virus remains in the body without causing visible symptoms apart from
>> a small change in some blood level readings. It is "dormant". This is
>> the stage at which people test positive to HIV but do not have
>> obvious active disease. It can last indefinitely in a healthy person.
>> Later the virus can be triggered into the active replication phase
>> and that's when the blood system is attacked and the immune system
>> is suppressed due to loss of blood products - so that all that is
>> left is essentially the cellular immune response involving Th-1
>> cytokines. This means the antibody system (which involves Th-2
>> cytokines and which usually takes care of many kinds of infections)
>> is not working, and infections can occur unless the Th-1 cytokines
>> can help. Still later on (assuming no treatment or suppression) the
>> blood cells are so destroyed that the Th-2 immune system is
>> completely overcome and nonfunctional. Nothing is there to stop
>> infections that normally would be resisted easily. In fact zero
>> antibodies are produced in late stage, so that the infected system
>> can not even make antibodies to the HIV virus. (And most tests for it
>> rely on looking for antibody to HIV - not looking for HIV itself).
>>
>> So if someone quite healthy gets HIV from a blood transfusion there
>> is a good chance they will be in dormant phase with no symptoms for a
>> long time. But they will make antibodies to HIV and those can be
>> measured - making a positive HIV test.
>> And if a woman like that nurses a baby - the baby will also get HIV
>> and may well die from it.
>>
>> Do not read that book of junk!
>> Namaste,
>> Irene
>> --
>> Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
>> P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
>> www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
>> "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>