As can be expexted, there is a good deal of speculation on how homeopathic high-potency drugs could possibly convey effects from the original substance, once sub-Avrogadro dilutions are reached, where the chance of even a single molecule of the active substance being present drops below 1.

One speculation is that information on the raw substance is transferred to clusters during succussion, and that it is retained in htis way through subsequent dilution and succussion steps. I therefor think it would be pertinent to take a technical look at clusters.

Originally, physicists assumed that the molecules of a fluid were mingling freely, but fairly recent research has shown that this is not always the case. In many cases, molecules can form loosely connected groups, clusters.

Clusters have primarily been observed in mechanically undisturbed, super-cooled (cooled below their freezing-point) liquids. The structures are simple and unstable and will break up on mechanical disturbance and temperature changes.

Could the information about the active substance be retained in water or alcohol clusters in homeopathic medicines?

This would require the following properties of clusters:

1) Sufficient complexity to store the characteristic information about each of the 2000+ different substances supposed to function as homeopathic medicines. Many of these substances are highly complex organic substances.

2) Sufficient stability to persist through succussion, transfer to lactose tablets, storage, and shipping.

The typical water cluster is supposed to be icosahedral (20-sided). Obviously, this relatively simple structure cannot exist stably in more than a few versions, so the number of different characteristics that might be "stored" in it must be way below the number stipulated in #1.

Water clusters are sort-lived and unstable structures. Mechanical agitation and temperature changes will break them up.

The normal practice of applying the liquid to lactose tablets will totally annihilate any cluster structure in the original liqud as it forms solution bonds to the lactose substrate.

The conclusion is: Cluster structures cannot possibly account for the complex memory function speculated to exist in homeopathic preparations.

Hans

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<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

Hans,

You are assuming something is being remembered and transferred as it is passed through a series of steps.
In reality, it may have gone through very significant changes at every step. All that matters is its final form in living tissue when it is administered.
Homeopaths have confirmed that "potentisation" only occurs in polar solvents, like water and ethanol.

In the manufacture of H. medicines, the final solution is dripped onto sugar pills (commonly lactose), and this is an essential step in the chain to make the final product, which remains potent indefinitely in this form (away from light and heat).

Tim

Couldn't have said that better Tim!

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http://www.homeopathy2health.com

I did not suggest clusters, Tim. I think you did. I am merely pointing out the possible potentials in clusters (or the lack of them). Now you are proposing a new mechanism. Have you got any take of what that could be?

Hans

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<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

"There are few medicines, if any, for which we know the basic mechanism of action. Drug action is not drug effect."

Goodman (co-author) Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics

MRC_Hans said:

Shiu Yin Lo discovered these "water crystals." They're being dismissed as "relics," meaning small molecules that have escaped dilution into nothingness. See them in this book: Proceedings of the First International Symposium on Physical, Chemical and Biological Properties of Stable Water Clusters, Shui Yin LO, PhD, Benjamin BONAVIDA, PhD (http://www.minimum.com/). But what if these crystals are indeed unique water crystals? If so, the only conclusion is that the etheric pattern of the crude substance -- diluted beyond Avogadro's number and succussed to do whatever succussion does in producing these very unique medicines -- is forcing water molecules into these unique crystals.

James A. Stephenson, MD, homeopath, hypothesized in the 1950s and '60s that water and alcohol (hydroalcohol) molecules form into unique polymers or "polymeric matrices" by homeopathic potentization or dynamization. Dr. Lo's crystals may be Stephenson's polymers.

But you will need to acquiesce to etheric substances to take this step. I personally do not understand what the problem is with such etheric substances, because modern physicists are admitting to over 20 such non-physical particles. Examples are dark matter, virtual particles, the vacuum energy of empty space, tachyons and many major manifestations of the AEther not presently admitted to be attributable to etheric particles and the AEtheric Plane of existence. This is the future, Hans, and we are being vindicated in what we've been saying for two hundred years as homeopaths and for millennia as Hermetic physicians in ancient Egypt, as Spagyric physicians in Europe from the 5th through 17th centuries (i.e., the legitimate ones, not the Paracelseans or proto-chemists called iatrochemists and iatromechanists) and an unknown group of homeopaths in the ancient Rama Empire or the Harappan Culture of the Indus Valley. It's 25th century medicine to me.

[ 23. October 2003, 04:43: Message edited by: Hahnemannian444 ]

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Albert, also Hahnemannian444B

Hans

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<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

MRC_Hans said:

No, they're presuming it's physical matter because they can't account for the amount of gravity in the universe in relation to the amount of mass, but that's a leap of faith since gravity actually precipitates off of the AEtheric Plane of existence.

This is when I get to say, huh? Remember my pet rock, Fred? Must be, because this stuff is "some strange kind of energy not associated with physical matter and energy."

Yeah, and they will be forever because they're etheric particles. Actually, it might be easier for you to understand that they're just the photons but on the AEtheric Plane, still, as with all others, coinciding in the same space because they're the same substance only nutating at a higher rate of oscillation. But there's no other way to account for the Wave Phenomenon of the Propagation of Light.

Everything about allopathic medicine is faith based, and most things in the natural sciences involve a belief structure that ignores enigmas like thought, emotion, existence, death, acupuncure points, sleep and unconsciousness, homeopathic potentization, Rollin R. Gregg's charts, Shiu Yin Lo's water crystals and the non-physical particles of modern physics -- all of them proving higher planes. Indeed, anything that does not fit into their theories (belief structures) is referred to as "out of context."

Some examples may be helpful. The Big Bang is a total farse based upon the one assumption that photons do not lose energy to the surrounding space while traveling the vast intergalactic distances, which would cause them to spread in wavelength and thus red shift. Well, gee, golly, the guys have admitted to cosmic rays doing that and disintegrating into the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) on p. 32 of the Jan. '99 issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN. And remember that cosmic rays are already energy particles, so how is that explainable? How does a wave of energy become another wave of energy? That's why the CMBR is one of the major manifestations of the AEther. Neutrinos have a half life near eternity, so where are all of the neutrinos that have been created by stars and atmospheres? Hence, that's why the neutrino sea (H.C. Dudley) and neutrino flux (Chiu) are another major manifestation of the AEther. Ivan Zapp has proven that the paradigm of the rise of civilization in Summaria is totally bogus. Charles Hapgood proved that Pole Shifts have occured three times in the last 100,000 years, and Einstein actually wrote the Forward to the book. Chemistry ignores homeopathic potentization because it doesn't fit into their belief structure. The Theory of Evolution cannot explain mass extinctions and the sudden explosion of species, only Pole Shifts can. Banking and industry are products of a grand conspiracy by billionaires and their cronies to control the natural resources of the world. Insurance companies almost singularly maintain the allopathic insanity. Name it and I am likely to show the insanity of it as a power structure or viewpoint. All of the major academic subjects are taught by idiots who got into those positions by accepting the idiocy of their professors. Academic degrees therefore are mere credentials that prove the persons are unable to think either clearly or for themselves. Gee, golly, and this drives the economy, right?

Back to homeopathy, why does it become more "scientific" to ignore some things and attribute phenomena to reductionistic mechanisms than to admit to the AEther, especially when modern physics has long since done so and blown out Einstein?

[ 23. October 2003, 11:08: Message edited by: Hahnemannian444 ]

__________________
Albert, also Hahnemannian444B

Hans

__________________
<i>You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.</i>

Hans,
Rocks ain't got arms.

Falsifiable has got an "i", not a "y", in the middle of it. Your spelling is excellent, especially as English is your second language...(better than most Brits/Americans) but "falsifyable" has cropped up many a time.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=falsifiable

Albert,

Tell me where your SubAvog theory is documented..would like to read it in detail.

Thanks.

Tim

[ 23. October 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: Timokay ]