bbc forum discussions on homeopathy

[bwv11]

if anyone's interested, this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2....hreads&sort=Te

will get you to a bunch of threads on the bbc concerning homeopathy. tim and albert have taken up residence and create a predictably bad impression over there, but the hosts seem surprisingly un-genteel for a bunch of brits. very hostile and sarcastic, though a few show an ability to exchange ideas respectfully and even intelligently, at least if pressed. a lot of them are medical researchers, though, and you can imagine the slant they bring to the subject.

[Hans Weitbrecht]

OOOOOOHHHHH Albert in his element. Personal discreditations do not replace sound reasoning and respect for the fellowmen.

[bwv11]

nice to see you there, hans! and 007, too!! i was feeling pretty lonely, the moreso as albert and tim were my only companions, and i wondered sometimes whose side they were on!!!

your sane and focussed posts were a sight for sore eyes. maybe now i can relax a bit: you know, those particular brits were wearing on me, i was getting pretty crotchety with them!

[ 13. August 2003, 11:19: Message edited by: bwv11 ]

[Hans Weitbrecht]

Dear BWV11
Thanks for the appreciation.

[Secret Agent]

Homeopathy is a mystery. Countless theories attempting to explain its
different aspect have been offered throughout the history. But we are not
clear. It is a good think that now people have seriously started learning
and are despretly trying to come to some conclusion about homeopathic way
of action. But so for no result. But reality is it works and works with
utmost care. Remember, Reality needs no reference. Homeopathy is a reality.


What I am observing. Most of the homeopaths have no background to able to
understand basic concepts of science but they do know little bit about the
art of healing i.e. homeopathy . For example you know how to drive a car
but you don’t have an idea of two strokes or four-stroke engine or 1000 cc
or 1500 cc car. But when you all give judgement on homeopathy like a
Scientist. Then it amuses to many members.

Let’s take an example of BERMUDA TRIANGLE.

http://www.parascope.com/en/triangle1.jpg

If a ship will enter into Bermuda Triangle by accident. The ship will go to
sink. It will never come back. No body knows how does it happen. But the
reality is it was happened. Some are saying there is a force inside that
area which attracts anything which is passing that way. Some are saying
methane gas is coming from that area which burnt everything which will pass
through that area. Some aeroplane also get crashed when they were passing
that area.

What is the mystery behind burmoda. Still no body exactly knows but we have
so many theories but non-of them completely tell exact answer.

For writing this article I took help from the various links some are
mentioned as under.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~daood/paulc.htm
http://altmed.creighton.edu/Homeopathy/history.htm
http://www.lyghtforce.com/HomeoList/00006747.htm
http://www.homeopathyhome.com
http://www.hpathy.com
http://www.theness.com/articles/homeopathy-cs0103.html
http://www.redwingbooks.com/products...eMedSciBas.cfm
http://www.innerself.com/Health/comm...y_Comments.htm
http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-poli...mentale_03.htm
http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/
http://www.digibio.com/
http://www.high-dilutions.net/
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/SCIENCE/Potprobl.htm
http://altmed.creighton.edu/Homeopat...losophical.htm
http://www.tfn.net/HealthGazette/homeop.html
http://www.lyghtforce.com/HomeoList/00006748.htm
Body system has thousand of internal systems. Different pathies are
depending on different body system. Just like acupunture, this system is
using benefits from nerves which has direct link with the brain.
Magnetotherapy is relying on positive and negative bipolar phenomenon of
body, which is also a kind of system in the body. Some systems can be seen
through naked eyes and some are invisible. You can observe some changes in
the body but you can't see them. Just like electricity you can't see it but
can be detected or measured by applying different techniques and
experiments. One system in the body is called reflex action. This can be
observe in the body but you can't see it.
Homeopathic medicines are used to transfer unique set of molecular
structure or codes in to the body by using strange system which can be
observe but can not be seen.

Each homeopathic crude substance has unique set of molecular codes or
unique structure of placement of molecules i.e. Zinc met has unique
molecular structure which is different to selenium or belladonna. This
molecular structure or set of code is natural and existing independently.
Just like we have above 105 elements and each element has its unique
character, set of code and naturally existing in this universe and we are
studying them with doing experiment.
The science is base on scientific methods. Which move around a circle.
These include observation -> hypothesis -> experiment -> result ->
conclusion -> theory -> law and these are also interlinked with each other.

To accept something you need an observation and perform experiment to
prove. To prove homeopathy you need an observation and perform experiment
and see which system of the body, this pathy is utilizing. Now here you
observed proving of a medicine by accident. Just like an apple was dropped
in front of Newton who was sitting in a garden and then he made hypothesis
after observation of fall of apple that why did the apple fall on earth?
Finally he brought the law of gravitational pull after doing so many
experiments and derived conclusion. Remember you can't see gravitational
pull with your naked eyes but you can only observe it by doing experiment.
In the same way, homeopathic treatment is observational base. You did
proving and observe the symptoms in the body or in other words some changes
has been observed in the body when some plants or animal substance were
administer on healthy individuals. When the same medicine was given to sick
person, it has been observe that medicine gave excellent result. How did it
happen? Still no body knows. But this is happening continuously just like
no body knows what is gravitational pull but still it is working and
everybody is getting benefit by applying this law.

In the sense homeopathic principle or law "The same medicine which produces
symptoms in sick can restore the condition of healthy individual" is still
working on. How ? This is big question and work is still going on to prove
it just like you can't say "From where gravitational power came on the
earth? Whether this power of attraction is present in the center of the
ground or it is located somewhere else in the universe" May be there is a
big magnet in the center of the ground. Still no body knows but we are
getting observation day by day.

Dr. Samuel Hahnemann discovered phenomenon during an experiment that each
medicinal substance has the ability to produce some uneven or unnatural
symptoms in the body and the same medicinal substance after potentization
has the capability of settling the same symptoms due to the change in its
set of code or molecular structure as found in crude form with the
comparison of set of code structure or placement of molecules in the
potency.

Mmolecular placement in crude form is different as compared to the
molecular placement in potency form. Each set of placement of molecules has
different impact over the body. This has been observed through experiments.
How does it happen? I don’t know. It is all observational base outcome,
which has been constructed after doing many experiments over the sick and
healthy individual by thousand and thousand number of Hahnemann’s
followers.

When you need only less then 100 atoms of Cyanide poison over any exposed
part of the human body for deca second and the person will immediately
expire within less then one second. In the same way homeopathic dilutions
will take less then one second for absorption into the body from any
exposed part or where rich accumulation / exchange of capillaries are
available like lips, nose, finger tips and taste buds etc.

Just to teach you. If I ask you, put a drop of cyanide over the blank
diskette which is made up of lactose or sucrose. Will you eat it? And if
you eat, will it not absorb in the stomach?

Believe me, the tablet having negligible quantity of cyanide will take one
second to react with your red blood corpuscles and it will take a second to
kill you. You don’t have to wait for the absorption of tablet to absorb in
the stomach. (Don’t get angry. I just presented here an example. My prayers
are with you)

If you still don’t believe. Just take .000001 mg of Cyanide put it on wheat
flour and mix two or three drops of water and put that globule in front of
a dog. See the result? The dog will not take second sigh after eating that
globule of wheat flour.

My dear! try to understand homeopathic dilutions. The molecular behaviour
of alcohol of Puls 30 potency is totally different as compared to the
molecular behaviour of fresh alcohol, which we generally take for preparing
new potency. The reason is alcohol present in 30 c potency of Puls came
from after passing through a special method of succession and potentization
which can be proved physically but the result of it can be obtained by
doing experiment over the sick people. As Rutherford proved the presence of
nucleus in the atom by experiment and observation and not actually showing
physically.
So you have simple criteria to see the result of homeopathy. Feverish
condition, red face, rush of blood towards head, high temperature (104 105
forenheit) pain temples, head congestion, high blood pressure and pain in
epiglottis etc this type of condition is calling belladonna of homeopathy.
Just give one dose of Belladonna 1M and observe the changes in the patient.
You will observe that all the severity of the symptoms in the patient has
been subsided in no time. How it was happened. I don't know. What is the
philosophy behind this experiment? I don't know. How the medicine
belladonna do cover the symptoms of the patient. I don't know
There are many mysterious phenomenons in the world, e.g pyramids of Egypt
and burmod triangle is the example in front of us. We have different
theories but still no one can tell us the exact answer of these
phenomenons. Work is still going on these projects. Homeopathy also works.
How no body knows. We have only mere speculative theories to prove it but
can’t say 100 percent. But observation tells us it yields results according
to its law of similar.

All the best!

[Anna Bryant]

007, i had a look over there, and it looks ugly; unlike this bb, where we all love one another.

one allopathic idea caught my imagination. it was stated that hahnemann's original idea was wrong. namely that the reason chinchona bark treated malaria was due to symptom-similarity. according to the writer, this basic premise has been disproven, since with modern knowledge we know the chemical mechanism for the action of chinchona bark on malaria, and it 'therefore' has nothing to do with symptom-similarity.

this allopathic idea is misguided in thinking that by determining the "how", one can infer the "why", which is a wholly different question.
one might ask such a proposer why chincona fails to treat many cases of malaria, given that we know the mechanism of its action.

[bwv11]

anna,

this is an important observation, imho. i mean the one about 'why' being different than 'how,' though the one about how we all love each other here at HHBB is also ... well, goofy . but anyhoo, there are these neurophysiologists who have made a career out of debunking freud. they observe that his nineteenth century model of neurological functioning is hopelessly out of date, which of course it is. but along these same lines, that has nothing to do with whether his psychological theories are right or wrong. one could also observe that hahnemann's prose style is really archaic, and that his pithy little aphorisms are no match for the giant literary/scientific contributions of freud or darwin, for example. so-o-o-o-o? the more i learn about homeopathy, and reference back to the Organon, the more incredulous i am at how encyclopedically yet precisely he covered the ground.

i feel i've made some progress in establishing some sort of dialogue with a few people over there, at the bbc, though the overall tone is incredibly hostile - one would almost think they were actually exiles from HHBB, the way they carry on! of course, the same guys that are on occasion pretty cordial to me, by now, continue to be truly obnoxious in their general attitude to homeopathy and in their exchanges with others - though in the case of their exchanges with albert, whom i like, btw, one can understand.

but if anyone posts there, be ready for a dog fight. they have more fixed ideas than you can shake a placebo at.

if anyone has cases that have included laboratory findings, btw, this seems to be an area they're especially interested in, and which might be relatively fruitful to present to them. but a warning: choose your case, if you do so, very very carefully; and run it past some allopathic physician to see how he'll challenge it, because these guys will dig and dig until they find any chink in your armor, and then they'll smile and ignore everything else. but it should be fun to stick that one to them, if anyone cares to embark on this pretty daunting challenge. and i would look forward to it, just as another opportunity to learn.

[Hans Weitbrecht]

Dear Members
Did a bit of stirring up over there on the Aids thread-- of course nothing personal. It is a science board, and we want to keep it that way.
More to come--
Best, hans

[Timokay]

bwv11,

<This is a post to you from Albert>

I'm sorry you feel that way.
What did I say that caused you to feel we opposed you?

You said:
"tim and albert have taken up residence and create a predictably bad impression over there."
And then:
"albert and tim were my only companions, and i wondered sometimes whose side they were on!!!"
I am not opposed to your approach, but I stand by mine 100%
These people begin with the premise that all of our provings and clinical evidence are meaningless.
I stand vehemently opposed with letting them get away with that, and I do so for 1001 reasons I feel should not have to be voiced to a homeopathic audience.
The whole of homeopathy is nothing but evidence!
If we let these sophists get away with a central lie that totally dismisses us, what have we got and why do we hold to what we do?
Their premises are total nonsense too.
You're compromising with them and acquiescing to some of their outrageous falsehoods, and I would caution against that.
I don't know what can be opposed to my stance when I hold one exactly as Hahnemann, Lippe, P.P. Wells and Boeinghausen did, while you're busily being Dunham.

Like I said, I am not opposed to it, but I believe it is inherently dangerous to be courteous with avowed enemies of homeopathy and thus of Truth and of humanity and the future.
I'd rather kill them right now, that's for damn sure.
These are evil men and women, make no mistake about it, sir.
You have seen their machinations, sophistries, presumptions, misrepresentations, but you are just beginning there.
I seem to have a little more experience with these kinds of people than most of us due to having come in a bit earlier than most in the darker periods of our NeoRenaissance, but I vehemently refuse to compromise the uncompromising Hahnemann because I know from history what has ALWAYS happened when we did.
These people are sharks, make no mistake about it.
They and their evil Hosts and Moderators at the site returned over 50 of my postings.
Ask Tim how unjustified a great many of them were.
They engage in these techniques as underhanded and devious people who don't care one whit about suffering humanity.
So I say: expose them; stand up to them; tell them they are liars when we discover it; tell them they need to get dead for the best good of all concerned, for that is 100% true since they are sincerely misguided but misguiding and adversely influencing the masses it is also our duties to defend.

Remember Hahnemann saying it is our responsibility to "be no stranger to everything else important for man as a citizen of the world to know."
One of those things is a high sense of social justice.
These people are allopaths; they are the lowest of the low skum that ever slimmed over this earth, for they defend total quackery that kills millions of people every year.
This is a genocide that's been going on for at least 2700 years!
Trillions have probably died over the whole history of civilization back 78,000 years of allopathy and homeopathy battling it out.
They have always had the upper hand in numbers because we have always been wimps with their kind of bullies.
That's why I began overtly with them where necessary telling them to get dead, for it is the absolute truth of what needs to happen for the best good of all concerned.
They are killers and defenders of quackery!
I will not be goodie-goodie with their kind.
I cannot imagine you thinking Hahnemann, Lippe, P.P. Wells or Boeinghausen would have dealt with their kind any differently than I am, for I know for an historical fact that they didn't!
I therefore hold that I am in the right here; however, I also adhere to the necessity for some other kinds of personalities to attempt to reach them in their own way too.
But I ask you to reconsider how you see my handling of them and read THE LESSER WRITINGS OF SAMUEL HAHNEMANN if you doubt his castigations of "murderous allopathy."
I haven't said anything Hahnemann wouldn't have said and for which he was absolutely right.
These people defend quackery and mass murder, period.
There is only one way to deal with their low-grade kind and that is head on in the same way they do us.
They are tyrants and demagogues in positions of power.
See how they wield it there.
You have come in after I have shocked them and refused to accept a single one of their false premises.
Be cautious what you agree to with these evil people
Dunham made a single careless mistake and virtually single-handedly destroyed American homeopathy by tacitly allowing low-potency pseudo-homeopaths have a differing opinion of what constituted homeopathy, even though it was part of the by-laws of the American Institute of Homeopathy that they would defend homeopathy.
That is what I am doing, so be careful where you sling stones since you are in much more serious jeopardy with you more conciliatory demeanor with should sharks and wolves who would devour you in a split second.
I know you see this, so be cautious and please rethink your view of how I have been dealing with these soon-to-be demons back in Hell (the Lower Astral Plane).
I furthermore remind you that Hahnemann told us in no uncertain terms late in his life, near the end of THE LESSER WRITINGS, to withstand taking allopathically spoiled cases as incurables, telling the allopaths in similar terms to first bring back those incurable patients to their natural disease before we would take them.
I posted that here but could not find it in any of my postings, leading me to believe that jonh removed it.
If so, that was a VERY serious mistake somewhat similar to those made by people attempting to compromise with allopaths and thereby compromising Hahnemann and the Truths of our very important natural Laws of Medicine given to us as sacred absolutes with which to cure unnecessary human and animal suffering.
These people are not to be bandied with lightly, and I take every opportunity I can to stick it to them.
I want to demoralize and chasten them, as they fully well deserve, for they are vehicles of total evil or we would not be seeing so many rapidly incurable cases in the billions around the world and throughout our history.
They may have sincere motives, but they are vehicles of evil, as sure as the Sun rises, for allopathy cannot cure and never will be able to.
Therefore, I advise you to be careful who you castigate here, for I am a Hahnemann born and bred to the bone for 25 years in a few months.
I would gladly spend my days executing those kinds of people, for they are the vast majority of ordinary allopaths.
It is quite true that allopathy is undergoing the perennial swing Coulter discovered from Rationalism to more Empiricism, but he also observed that it always swings back to the Rationalist extreme because Empiricism never works any better and people then get tired of the experiments with goody-goody types with Pollyannaish views of reforming allopathic medicine.
It cannot be done.
Allopathy has little or no place in diseases.
This is the stance of Hahnemann.
If you do not so well know this yet, please take up the study of the old literature again till you discover it, for it is as plain as can be once you realize that allopathy is exactly the same in effect as in Hahnemann's time no matter how more sanitized has become their ghoulish blood cult of virtual animal and human sacrifice.
In no way could allopathy in diseases not be the manifest child of Black Mentalist since it is total quackery and mass murder that somehow finds the whole world ignoring their daily declarations of therapeutic incompetence in virtually all diseases, meaning that the result of their therapeutics is exactly what we see: murder.
That makes allopaths vehicles of evil.
Some are just ignorant.
But some are passionately motivated to sustain it against all logic and at the expense of billions of innocent lives.
Be careful when you dance with the devils, sir, for they will eat you and destroy everything you stand for if you give them the slightest opportunity.
The prize there is, however, potentially powerful, for an audience is finally seeing both sides of the issue.
These people have never met my kind before, that's for sure.
If you denounce me, you are cutting off your own feet since I have worked hard to withstand their sophistries, machinations, presumptions, misrepresentations, devious methods to silence me and all manner of other underhanded evils simply because they oppose a system of medicine that they constantly demonstrate and occasionally admit to knowing absolutely nothing accurate about.
We have important efforts with such people, for they lie to the populace and lead them like lambs to the slaughterhouses called hospitals.
I will not sit idly by as a passive witness to this when I know I am one of the truly few who knows the truth of these situations and know I have the high sense of social justice to stand up to them.
So remember that I am every bit a Hahnemannian when you so carelessly make such remarks, and be hyper-cautious with those sharks and wolves.

Albert
Hahnemannian444
Hahnemannian444B
Hahnemannian444BB

[Timokay]

Hans,

<This is a post to you from Albert>

Hans, you also disappointed me with:
"OOOOOOHHHHH Albert in his element. Personal discreditations do not replace sound reasoning and respect for the fellowmen."
My fellowmen?
You're suggesting that these men and women are my equals and your equals worthy of respect when we know what they do and defend?
How does that sense of social justice work, sir?
BTW, I see that you also recently fell afoul of the two ridiculously ignorant and dangerously foolish feminists from the GV camp of high-potency pseudo-homeopathy here.
These defenders of a novice prescriber named Melanie and these defamers of Hahnemann are incredibly shameful and should be ostracized for a least a month here.
There is no place for presumptuousness in homeopathy, but of course the whole of HPH and especially the Vithoulkas school of thought is nothing but ridiculously presumptuous psychobabble.
Why people stand for it is another mistake Hahnemannians like me and you know better than to take part in, for it is relentlessly destructive of homeopathy.
Their very same ridiculous presumptions fell upon you as me, and I see again little or no denouncing of those injustices.
How Jonh allowed the dangerously fanatical and inadvertently evil woman named ChaChaHeels (aka Divina -- in a pig's eye!) get away with banning me makes him as guilty as she and Chris for that injustice.
Fortunately, they have large amounts of good karma to withstand such errors because the GVs and HPHs are far from being totally wrong in all of their homeopathic views and practices.
Indeed, they have very sound arguments I often stand behind and find little or no problems with, but they do not represent Hahnemannian homeopathy, and that's a very serious mistake Hahnemann denounced on pp. 121-22 of THE CHRONIC DISEASES, which they of course never refute.
Still, I find it shameful that such fanaticisms are once again permitted a place here without any protest of note.
The people at HomeopathyHome have a great deal to learn about social justice if they feel they can allow such things to go on by such ridiculously silly female representatives of an overtly false form of homeopathy with a very matriarchal slant to epitomally balanced homeopathy.
Why have the two women not been banned and me reinstated after that repeated fiasco with Hans?
And why was Annie Bryant's weak protest the only voice heard?
It amazes me.
Thank you, and God Bless!

Albert
Hahnemannian444
Hahnemannian444B
Hahnemannian444BB