They were discredited by conventional scientists, athough you have to wonder about this when you hear about their behaviou when try to recreate the experiment.

There is further work on this being done in Korea and Japan.

__________________
Regards,<br /><b>Simone H</b><br /><br /><i>Aude Sapere</i><br /><br />"Never be a passive listener or learner" ~ Christian Gottfried Hahnemann

KKrista,

Nice to hear you have started learning homeopathy. When we like something then we find argument for its evidence. When we dislike something then we certainly search for those squabble evidence which will disapprove our estimation.

The same thing is happening here with homeopathy. Is it not jolly, first we proved and confirmed dynamisation many years ago in hilarious books of homeopathy and now we have started doing experiments to find dynamisation process. :razz:

Simone is a key linker and playing the role of queen of web linker in lieu of Jvolkman. Who is a confirmed queen of link.

Simone is a student and not a qualified homeopaths. She has no idea of atoms, ions, molecules, elements and dynamisation. She is studying all these things. It will take time to understand all these things. She entered in a website where dynamisation process was written. She already had opinion about dynamisation and hence she started telling everybody that dynamisation has been done. Now she is creating confusion about the dynamisation of water molecule and tried to link it with homeopathic dilutions.

Kkrista! My suggestion to you. First increase your knowledge in the relevant field and try to understand basic terminologies of those fields and then develop your opinion about true dynamisation.

__________________
<b>Dr. M Iqbal (Classical Homeopath)<br />Iqbal Poly Clinic, Main Market, Kharian<br />Phone Clinic: 05771-511337, Residence: 05771-533737 </b>

Thank you both for your replies.

I am utterly disappointed to hear that the work was discredited, but at least they are still working on it.

Dr Iqbal, I'm not sure if you mean to sound so uncharitable, but your comments to Simone (to me and in my opinion) sound very condescending and mean spirited. I'm not sure how much you are privy to regarding Simone's education and background. I don't know much about her, but perhaps it would be best to ask about her background before assuming she doesn't know anything.

I know my profile states that I too am a student, but I also work in business,run a shelter and study homeopathy on the side, my true studies right now are in the sciences (math, physics, chem, bio etc).

For myself (although I can't prove it...yet), I do know that even though higher potencies contain very little of the original substance, they are more powerful, in my experience I have also noted that remedies given in water appear to act better. I don't believe in magic, I'm not particularily spiritual and therefore I do believe that there is a scientific explaination for every action on this earth. Just because we can not explain something does not mean that it doesn't exist, we simply do not possess the tools to prove any explaination one way or another.

What I am struck by however, is how silly and uneducated the scientific community appears to be in such small increments of time, think about what we thought was the truth just 20 years ago.

No offense to anybody, but quite frankly I don't think a homeopath, qualified or not, would possess the knowledge and skill to prove or disprove dynamisation. Therefore the fact that Simone is a student and not qualified yet, does not bare any relevence to the argument. I am sure however that she does have some idea (possibly the same knowlege as you possess) about molecules, atoms, elememts etc, as that is usually covered in your 1st few years of homeopathic study (at least that is how our schools operate). One of the reason's that I decided to study conventional science over getting into homeopathic studies right now is that I don't believe the homeopathic schools offer really solid scientific studies in the detail I was personally looking for. Furthermore, I'm not sure a rigerous study of these sciences should be required unless you plan to go into research anyhow.

The first name of organon was organon of rational medicine. Then it was changed to medical science. Later on into healing art. This shows that when Hahnemann did not prove science in homeopathy. He readily changed the titles from one to another. I admit it is a science. But so for no proof. Dynamization was introduced in 5th edition. I guess.

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Hafeez
Forum Pk

About 15 thousand articles have been published so for on Diabetes. No conclusion so for. So if french scientist have done something for homeopathy then it is a great news. But as for as my information is concerned. wonders of water molecules has no reality with homeopathy. hope for the best in future.

__________________
Hafeez
Forum Pk

Dr. Jacques Benveniste's research is alive and well. Randi, The Magician, who was part of the team that originally 'debunked' his research was part of the Quackbusters organization. For background information on the "Battle between Health and Medicine" go to: http://www.savedrclark.net/by_whom2.htm. A copy
of THIS newsletter, and older ones, are viewable at the website http://www.quackpotwatch.org/default.htm .

The following article will shed some light on the controversy:

Experiments have backed what was once a scientific 'heresy', says Lionel Milgrom

Lionel Milgrom
Guardian
Thursday March 15, 2001

A bout homeopathy, Professor Madeleine Ennis of Queen's University Belfast is, like most scientists, deeply sceptical. That a medicinal compound diluted out of existence should still exert a therapeutic effect is an affront to conventional biochemistry and pharmacology, based as they are on direct and palpable molecular events. The same goes for a possible explanation of how homoeopathy works: that water somehow retains a "memory" of things once dissolved in it.

This last notion, famously promoted by French biologist Dr Jacques Benveniste, cost him his laboratories, his funding, and ultimately his international scientific credibility. However, it did not deter Professor Ennis who, being a scientist, was not afraid to try to prove Benveniste wrong. So, more than a decade after Benveniste's excommunication from the scientific mainstream, she jumped at the chance to join a large pan-European research team, hoping finally to lay the Benveniste "heresy" to rest. But she was in for a shock: for the team's latest results controversially now suggest that Benveniste might have been right all along.

Back in 1985, Benveniste began experimenting with human white blood cells involved in allergic reactions, called basophils. These possess tiny granules containing substances such as histamine, partly responsible for the allergic response. The granules can be stained with a special dye, but they can be decolourised (degranulated) by a substance called anti-immunoglobulin E or aIgE. That much is standard science. What Benveniste claimed so controversially was that he continued to observe basophil degranulation even when the aIgE had been diluted out of existence, but only as long as each dilution step, as with the preparation of homoeopathic remedies, was accompanied by strong agitation.

After many experiments, in 1988 Benveniste managed to get an account of his work published in Nature, speculating that the water used in the experiments must have retained a "memory" of the original dissolved aIgE. Homoeopaths rejoiced, convinced that here at last was the hard evidence they needed to make homoeopathy scientifically respectable. Celebration was short-lived. Spearheaded by a Nature team that famously included a magician (who could find no fault with Benveniste's methods - only his results), Benveniste was pilloried by the scientific establishment.

A British attempt (by scientists at London's University College, published in Nature in 1993) to reproduce Benveniste's findings failed. Benveniste has been striving ever since to get other independent laboratories to repeat his work, claiming that negative findings like those of the British team were the result of misunderstandings of his experimental protocols. Enter Professor Ennis and the pan-European research effort.

A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water.

In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial.

The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise.
Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions.

Still, Professor Ennis was not satisfied. "In this particular trial, we stained the basophils with a dye and then hand-counted those left coloured after the histamine- inhibition reaction. You could argue that human error might enter at this stage." So she used a previously developed counting protocol that could be entirely automated. This involved tagging activated basophils with a monoclonal antibody that could be observed via fluorescence and measured by machine.

The result, shortly to be published in Inflammation Research, was the same: histamine solutions, both at pharmacological concentrations and diluted out of existence, lead to statistically significant inhibition of basophile activation by aIgE, confirming previous work in this area.

"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." She is at pains to point out that the pan-European team have not reproduced Benveniste's findings nor attempted to do so.

Jacques Benveniste is unimpressed. "They've arrived at precisely where we started 12 years ago!" he says. Benveniste believes he already knows what constitutes the water-memory effect and claims to be able to record and transmit the "signals" of biochemical substances around the world via the internet. These, he claims, cause changes in biological tissues as if the substance was actually present.

The consequences for science if Benveniste and Ennis are right could be earth shattering, requiring a complete re-evaluation of how we understand the workings of chemistry, biochemistry, and pharmacology.

One thing however seems certain. Either Benveniste will now be brought in from the cold, or Professor Ennis and the rest of the scientists involved in the pan-European experiment could be joining him there.

__________________
Shirley Reischman

Here is another article of interest on IE Crystals. While living in California, I attended a conference at which Dr. Benjamine Bonavida, of UCLA Medical School, spoke of his cancer research with homeopathic dilutions of interferon and how in the test tube, the dilutions were more successful at killing the cancer cells than was the crude substance. He explained it in terms of the receptor sites being more receptive to the ultra high dilutions. He is currently a manager at Dr. Lo's company.

Extremely Dilute Solutions Create Non-Melting Ice Crystals in Room Temperature Water: The Implications on Homeopathic Medicine

A group of California scientists at the American Technologies Group have discovered, identified, and characterized a unique type of stable (non-melting) ice crystals that maintain an electrical field. These nanometer sized, rod-shaped water clus ters are created when a substance is placed in distilled water, then vigorously shaken or stirred, and then repeatedly diluted and shaken or stirred.

Shui-Yin Lo, PhD, a senior researcher at American Technolo gies Group and a visiting professor at the California Institute of Technology, notes, "These water clusters or ice crystals remain stable at high temperatures, and what's intriguing is that the ice crystals still exist with varying fluctuation after repeated dilutions."

The uses of very small doses of substances to promote significant biological or chemical activity is not new to science or medicine. Hormesis is the modern scientific field that studies the effects of extremely small doses of otherwise toxic sub stances to stimulate growth or healing. Hundreds of studies from a variety of scientific fields have confirmed this phenomena, and the journal, Health Physics, even devoted an entire issue to this phenomena (May, 1987).

Also, one of the most popular alternative therapies in the world today is homeopathic medicine, a system of using extremely small doses of plant, mineral, chemical, or animals substances. Homeopathy has been derided by conventional physicians and scientists since its inception in the early 1800s because they incor rectly assumed that homeopathic doses of medicines were too small to have a significant biological or clinical effect. Despite this antagonism, homeopathy has persisted and even has consist ently grown on every continent in the world today.

Dana Ullman, M.P.H., author of The Consumer's Guide to Homeopathy (Tarcher/Putnam, 1996) and numerous others and a leading spokesperson for the field, notes, "This new research confirms the existence of IE crystals and suggests that there may be something 'there' in homeopathic medicines after all. Many physicians and scientists have ignored homeopathy simply because they couldn't explain it. While we still don't know precisely how these IE crystals work in the body, at least we can now verify that homeopathic medicines are biologically active. This is a landmark discovery, both for homeopathy and for science."
The new research by Dr. S. Lo and the various other scientists who have confirmed it seems to verify the experiences of two centuries of homeopathic physicians. Dr. Lo notes, "There seems to be something unique in water that undergoes extreme dilution, and we now have the laboratory evidence and even the photographic evidence to verify it."

Dr. Lo acknowledges the links between his work and that of homeopathic medicine, but he also asserts, "Thus far, we have only systematically tested substances which have been diluted one to ten 13 times. Homeopathic doctors sometimes use medicines which are diluted one to ten 30, 200, 1,000, or more times, and we have not tested these extreme dilutions yet. However, I would not be surprised if IE crystals are also observed in these doses. Based on our research to date, every dilution beyond the sixth has found IE crystals in them."

When following the traditional homeopathic pharmacological method to diluting and shaking solutions, the American Technology scientists found that approximately 0.1-0.2% of the solution contained IE crystals. These scientists, however, have discovered methods to increase this to 10%.
Dr. Lo concludes, "The homeopaths were definitely onto something, but our discovery of IE crystals may help their medi cines become even more powerfulful, and these IE crystals will also probably have significant industrial applications, energy transfer benefits, cleansing uses, and ecological protection."

Dr. Lo's work with IE crystals was initially inspired by earlier research in homeopathy, and his first experiments in using microdoses of substances were derived from the homeopathic pharmacological process of sequential diluting and shaking sub stances in a distilled water. The Lancet (September 20, 1997) recently published a review of 89 double-blind controlled trials and discovered that homeo pathic medicines were 2.45 more effective than a placebo. Even the studies which were deemed "high quality" studies found that homeopathic medicine had a 1.78 times greater effect than place bo. Despite these significant results, scientists and skeptics have dismissed this research primarily because they assumed that the doses used in homeopathy simply did not exist and could not possibly have any effect.

Reference to Dr. Lo's original research:
Shui-Yin Lo, "Anomalous State of Ice," Modern Physics Letters B, 10,19 (1996):909-919.
Shui-Yin Lo, Angela Lo, Li Wen Chong, et al., "Physical Proper ties of Water with IE Structures," Modern Physics Letters B, 10,19 (1996):921-930.

The following information about American Technologies Group's management team is provided to show the level of involvement from leading members of the business and science community.
American Technologies Group's Management Team
Lawrence J. Brady serves as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. Mr. Brady served as Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Trade Administration in the Reagan Administration. He served in senior staff roles in the Nixon and Ford White Houses. He has repre sented the United States in trade negotiations in Europe, Japan, and China. He served 12 years in staff positions in the U.S. Senate.

Hugo Pomrehn was President and Chief Operating Officer of ATG until February, 1997, and now serves as Executive Vice President of Special Projects. He was Under Secretary of Energy in the Bush Administration where he was the third ranking official at the U.S. Department of Energy. He was also Vice President and Manager of the L.A. Office of Bechtel Corporation.
Shui-Yin Lo, PhD. serves of the Director of Research. He is presently a visiting professor at California Institute of Tech nology, and has previously taught at Stanford University, Oxford University, and Berlin University. He has published over 100 papers in peer-review scientific journals, including Physical Review Letters, Physical Review, and Nuclear Physics. He re ceived his doctoral degree in physics at the University of Chicago (1966).

Benjamin Bonavida, PhD has served as professor in the department of microbiology and immunology at UCLA since 1983. He served as interim chair of this department in 1996 and 1997. He has pub lished over 300 papers in peer-review scientific journals, including most of the leading journals in cancer research.

Selim M. Senkan, PhD. has served as the chairman of the depart ment of chemical engineering at UCLA since 1995. He received his doctoral degree at MIT.

List of Board of Directors (in addition to Lawrence Brady and Shui-Yin Lo):

Alfred H. Kingon was the former U.S. Ambassador to the European Union and served in the Reagan Administration as Assistant to the President and Secretary of the Cabinet. He previously was editor of Saturday Review, Financial World, and Money & Credit. Today, he is the principal of Kingon International, an international investment firm.

William E. Odom served as Director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988. From 1977 to 1981, he served in the White House as Military Assistant to President Carter's Assistant for National Security Affairs, Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is now the director of National Security Studies at the prestigious Hudson Institute and as an adjunct professor at Yale.

Terry M. Wachsner is the President of Heitman Properties Ltd, a division of United Assets Management, one of the largest real estate investment and property management firms in the U.S.

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Shirley Reischman

sr,

informative post.

thanks

i enjoyed my vacatoin. my children happy. i am happy mood

reading topics in my absent.

any teacher on this board. link please french scentist work. want to read. thansk

hello simone. how are you

http://www.digibio.com/cgi-bin/node.pl?lg=us&nd=n4_1

__________________
Regards,<br /><b>Simone H</b><br /><br /><i>Aude Sapere</i><br /><br />"Never be a passive listener or learner" ~ Christian Gottfried Hahnemann