Hello Shirley,

Whenever I feel like saying something about a case here, I worry that I'll post it, and that the next post will reveal a cure with Xxxx 6C that worked in 3 minutes. O well--I guess I'm stuck with that, but this case sounds pretty psychological in a lot of respects, so perhaps these comments might help.

Although you offer limited detail, I find myself doubting the reliability of mother’s reports. We know she deceived you at least once (quote: “I'm not sure why they didn't give me the info when I first asked them to tell me everything”). If the omission was intentional, its obviously a problem, but if it was unintentional, I’d suspect an unconscious motive of “minimizing” the child’s problems, as well as to externalize blame. This would fit right in with the glimpses you’ve given of how this woman operates.

You say the girl has had remedies for “a variety of … acute and chronic” problems: but if these were truly chronic, wouldn’t their origins pre-date the first trip to the first homeopath? The girl is “emotionally very fragile, now,” but your own “countertransference” reaction to mother’s pressures could mimic the reactions this girl has had, from an early age, to growing up in the same household with her. Countertransference is a good measure of concealed motivations in our patients: your anxiety for the girl, unfortunately, is probably well-founded; but in that case, imagine being that child, and living with this woman every day of your life—she’d almost certainly have emotional issues early on, similar to yours: “I better get this right, I’m running out of time, what will mommy do next?”. I’m also curious about the nature of the miasmatic problems you see in the family history.

In short, I would suggest, where possible, re-considering symptoms as reflecting a response to stress rather than, or in addition to, poor prescribing. (BTW, the “previous therapist” often has a different take on things than the peregrinating patient who complains about their poor case management). In any case, identification of emotional, psychosomatic, and family factors in this case might lead to a different remedy (just as an example, sudden onset blindness will lead in different directions in a patient who has been struck in the head, than in a patient with hysterical neurosis). It’s hard to be more precise or confident in my statements without additional data, but this woman sounds like so many mothers of distraught children, that I’ve seen in my office, that it’s hard to believe there isn’t more to the situation than she’s been willing to share with you.

[ 09. August 2002, 01:23: Message edited by: bwv11 ]

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"The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.

BWV11, this is brilliant and definitely gives me a different way to look at this case. Don't worry, I don't think there's any chance of some miracle cure.

As for the 'chronic' problems, I was using that term to mean long standing problems that did not go away on their own as oposed to colds, flues, etc., and, yes, they did come on after treatment. They are asthma and migraines.

The miasmatic influences - on the mother's side, grandmother and grandfather both are cancer survivers and grandmother now has undiagnosed progressive ataxia and weight loss. On the father's side, grandfather died from heart failure and grandmother survived cancer. Father has chronic sinus problems, skin tags and lipid cysts, insomnia, self described obsessive-compulsive and quite a temper. Mother is neurotic, worrier, intense and drives me crazy! BTW, the daughter is 11 and the oldest of three children - a brother 8 and a sister 3.

The mother keeps apologizing for driving me crazy. She is aware that her behavior is overly intense and intrusive - I have not said anything to her and have tried to be calming and reasuring with her, although I did tell her I did not approve of the previous prescribing. I also try to take every opportunity to explain classical homeopathy. I actually like the mother, even though her behavior bothers me. Both parents seem overly involved in the minutia of the child's life (at least compared to me parenting style of benign neglect) and are already very concerned that she get into a good college (she's only 11).

I don't have any sense of deceit. The mother and father have made an effort to continue to think of things that may provide more information. I also don't think there is any effort to minimize the problems. The parents are very worried and are trying to think of things to do to help. I've already had the thought that I wouldn't want them as parents!

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Shirley Reischman

Shirley -

Thanks for your reply - I'm truly grateful that you found it useful. The new information you provide about the parents makes me feel better about the situation, and their potential for making good use of your services. At this time, I'd only add that even well-meaning folks can be in "denial," or simply be unable to differentiate normal from symptomatic behavior, especially in its early stages. But I'm going to review your latest post at leisure and perhaps have a little more to share later.

Take care,

Bach

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"The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.

Dear Shirley,

Coming across overdrugged cases is quite common in Pakistan. Such cases offer a challenge to the skill of a homoeopath. Blurred and indefinite - lacking definitive symptoms required for a homoeopathic prescription, such cases give the prescriber quite a tough time.

Here is what a senior Pakistani homoeopath suggests for such cases.
"Retake the case as laid down in the Organon. Select the most striking symptoms. See if these symptoms are found in the pathogenesis of the remedies previously prescribed. If so, strike them off. The job may be tedious but it will pay and in the end you will have the symptoms that characterize the patient. Repertorize the remaining symptoms. This will give you a group of remedies. If there is no emergency, just give enough placebo for one month and closely observe how the symptoms - both the pathogenetic and the morbid - move during this period.

However, if a medicinal intervention is called for, select the most matching one - taking care of its relationship with the previously prescribed medicines, particularly the last one - and give just one dose in 200C. Easy said than done - in some cases, despite all the labours - we feel lost in the jumble. In such cases a dose of Marum 200 will bring order and may point to the indicated remedy.

The best policy, however, should be "wait and see" without any medicinal intervention as long as the symptoms keep on waning but see the pattern of their disappearance. This requires a lot of patience and confidence."

Well, this may or may not apply to the present case but it can be saved for future reference.

[ 09. August 2002, 07:57: Message edited by: Ghazi ]

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Best regards<br />Ghazi<br /><a href="http://www.sph.homeoweb.net" target="_blank">www.sph.homeoweb.net</a>

Ghazi, thank you for your suggestion. I will try that. As of yesterday, the mother reports that she hasn't had any more asthma problems in the last few days and the headaches seem a little milder. Maybe the Phos has done something. I gave it the end of May. I will follow your suggestion, but not do anything in terms of giving a remedy, but just watch things. BTW, this was the first call from the mother where she didn't seem in a panic.

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Shirley Reischman

There's an important lesson here for all us homeopaths. This idea of prescribing, not on the symptoms, but on a THEORY, will only lead to trouble.

Prescribing for GHOSTS, things that aren't there but are imagined to be there.

The patient has been vaccinated, let's give Thuja. The patient has a miasm, let's give Tuberculinum--not because it's active, just because it's "there".

The patient should receive homeopathic "vaccinations", so let's give Pertussin 10M and so on.

Essentially, we're asking the healthy patient to do a Proving.

Once again, we have the medicinal disease we've talked about before on other threads, and which Hahnemann talks about in the Organon, warning us that these medicinal diseases are harder to get rid of than the natural ones.

Shirley, you know, of course, what remedies were given in over-dose. In the child, do you recognize a proving of any of these remedies? If so, perhaps a 6C of the same remedy might be tried? It seemed to help Mike on Shirl's thread.

Otherwise, I agree with the other suggestions:
The constitutional remedy, or zig-zagging through the presenting acute pictures until things settle down, finally Nux Vomica is also a good idea.

Let us know what happens.

Snoopy

Yes Snoopy

Here is another one where we agree.

I want to dwell a bit on your idea: ‘’to repeat the same remedy again in a lower potency –6C- in the hope to antidote the effects of a previously administered higher potentised dose.
Hahnemann when using c-potencies used to repeat by going down the potency scale like: 30c, 24c, 18c, 12c, 6c, Also there are cases, where he gave 18c, followed by 6c. In non of those cases the benefits of the previous remedy were reversed.

Also, the higher potencies have brought out a far wider symptompicture in their provings than the lower ones. So-- the lower potency is in no-way identical to the higher potency and can therefore not antidote a higher potency in all its effects.
Immagine, Nat-m, the normal salt, in the lower potencies, there was hardly any significant symptoms brought out, but in the higher, and we are talking around the 30th potency, the most beautiful symptom-pictures emerged.

Boenninghausen already 1835 recognized this and advised against the repetition of the same remedy in the hope of antidotation. See in this context my article on the remedy relationships on the www.Boger-Boenninghausen.com/

The only thing which can be achieved by the repetition of the same remedy in lower potency in the hope of antidoting, is either confusion/stunning of the liveforce, or another medicinal disease, of a even stronger kind. This confusion of the liveforce is sometimes interpreted as a successful antidotation, because other symptoms caused by the second dose overshadow the previous suffering, or all symptoms vanish. This is only temporary, but over the time the truth will come out, at the latest, when well selected remedies fail to work beneficially.

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Hans Weitbrecht
Consultant Homeopath

Dear Dr. Bhatia
I have difficulties to adopt your view which is your believe. One of the fundamental principals of homeopathy is the simile law. Would I follow your believe, this would mean that remedies in their provings have brought out persons, something like created new persons. I have not observed this when proving remedies.
Could you explain this ,,going deaper’’?
Did not Hahnemann say in the par.: 14:

There is , in the interior of man, nothing morbid that is curable and no visible morbid alteration that is curable which does not make itself known to the accurately observing physician by means of morbid signs and symptoms—an arrangement in perfect conformity with the infinite goodness of the all-wise Preserver of human live.

The problem of suffering can only partially be relieved by homeopathy, disease being one source of it. The other sources like birth, old age, death, not getting what one wants, cannot be solved with homeopathic remedies.

I don’t think that you can change the causes for suffering in anyone other than yourself, by realizing them and changing them, so that suffering will be extinguished.

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Hans Weitbrecht
Consultant Homeopath

Dear Hans,

Yes! My views result from my beliefs as is the case with everyone else. It was the case with Hahnemann and I believe it is the case with u too. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.

You quote organon & Hahnemann as if that is the last and final word in Homeopathy. Organon is enriching and Hahnemann was great. No doubts about that. But I still think he was a human being and also 'to err is human'. So I just don't believe in what I read. I believe in what I experience.

I do agree that the law of simile is fundamental. It is just the application that we differ in. You try to find out the remedy based on the signs and symptoms because Hahnemann wrote 2 centuries ago that nothing except signs and symptoms can be reflective of morbidity. And yet so often, my patients mannerism, behaviour, hobbies, appearance, gestures tell me what medicine he/she needs. Can you classify them as signs and symptoms? Not always. Medicines are hard to understand unless and untill you are able to understand the personalities that they reflect, untill you start seeing the medicines as not an ensemble of signs and symptoms but as a mean for treating a 'person' with a distinct 'personality'. If you only look for signs and symptoms than you are working on a narrow field. You talk about the 'interior of the man' and you are working so superficially.

I do agree that Homeopathy can not solve the problems of life, but it can sure help to overcome their effects. Effects which often do not show as signs and symptoms but are carried as scars which, sometimes change the person altogether. If you keep treating the signs and symptoms, without understanding the person who has these signs and symptoms, I think Hahnemann won't be happy.

Widen your horizons!

regards,

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Dr. B<br /><br /><a href="http://www.doctorbhatia.com" target="_blank">www.DoctorBhatia.com</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.hpathy.com" target="_blank">www.Hpathy.com</a><br />Homeopathy for Everyone

Dear dr. Bhatia
I am amazed, that you believe to know what I think when writing:
&gt;&gt;My views result from my beliefs as is the case with everyone else&lt;&lt;

If you would know me, you would have realized, that my views exactly do NOT come from believes, but from unprejudiced observations. Basically I believe nothing, and can live very well with a mind not preoccupied by believes.

Only an open mind, which is unprejudiced can allow to accept what is experienced. Experience has told me that remedies in their proving have not created ‘’personalities’’. ‘’Personality’’ in my observation is the sum of believes, opinions, views someone holds. So-far all my patients when asked if they wanted to have their personalities change refused vigorously.

I observed, that Hahnemann makes sense within the definitions he created and used. One of them is, that disease is expressed by signs and symptoms.
If someone like you comes along and widens, changes the terminology, then Hahnemann does not make sense anymore, and one can question the accuracy of his observations and deductions. This is why every interpretation fails, and people like you feel, that there are parts missing and there needs to be development. One way to overcome this is: to try to improve on homeopathy entering new ways, interpretations without understanding Hahnemann in his context. This seem to be easier because it does not mean that nay of the previous concepts have to be changed. The other possibility is to skip your believes, views, get rid of the interpretations and restudy Hahnemann without any view believe etc,--just the open mind—the unprejudiced observer. I chose the second road a few years back.

You wrote:
You try to find out the remedy based on the signs and symptoms because Hahnemann wrote 2 centuries ago that nothing except signs and symptoms can be reflective of morbidity.

Again I am amazed how prejudgmental you are in your views about the reasoning why I select, or not select a remedy, when stating this.

I do not select a remedy because Hahnemann said so and because I am a blind believer!!!!

Instead—I put chamomile to the test. I took it till I got a lot of stomach trouble in a very definite way different than the coffee pain I get if taking too much from it.
And now I know what kind of stomach trouble can be cured by cham and coffea.

It is in my observation , that disease, being the derangement of the liveforce, shows itself in signs and symptoms, the only disease expressions possible in living creatures. Of course there are other signs of suffering, than disease-signs and symptoms.

You wrote:
&gt;&gt;And yet so often, my patients mannerism, behaviour, hobbies, appearance, gestures tell me what medicine he/she needs&lt;&lt;

As these things were not experienced in provings, they can only come from phantasy.
This reminds me of a prescription I once came across, where Tub. was prescribed on: ''loves candlelight dinners.'' Comment from the back when the case was presented: ‘’who wouldn’t’’
I have to leave it her, as work is calling.

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Hans Weitbrecht
Consultant Homeopath