Has anyone managed to find out whether the kids who have caught measles have been vaccinated? I bet they had!!! When whooping cough came around when my kids were young every child in the street got it - vaccinated or not!!! They all played outside together during it and were not seriously ill.

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RSHom - Registered Homeopath

MMR is going to be this governments BSE, which is a shame because they having every opportunity to do something intelligent and original about it.

Ricky; the Mirror reported that the children in the South London measles out break (which is where we live) were all unimmunised. But then they also said that MMR is 'reliable and safe'. Why? because it has been used in the USA since 1982, and they have a 99% uptake! They did not mention that innoculation is compulsary in the States as I understand it to be.

My mother, says if she had a young baby today she would not take it to be given MMR. My sister and I both had measles, it was not nice but we recovered. I had rubella 4 times and once after the vaccine. SHe had mumps as a child, again not fun but she recovered.

The issue is, is it better to take a perfectly healthy baby for an injection that you now fear may cause lasting damage; autism, bowel problems? Or would you risk that the child may catch these 'awful' illnesses?

Heads they win tails you lose.

I would imagine that a lot of the 'mothers' withholding their children from MMR are not even aware of the homoepathic issues around innculation.

What is most maddening is that these parents who are being treated like naughty children. Are the thinking middle class children of the 60's (I count myself in amongst them) who put this government in power in the first place!

ozzie, I couldn't work out if you know this already, so excuse me if you do - it is a very good thing that your daughter has caught rubella.
It will give her lifelong immunity which a vaccine does not guarantee.
The only danger of the very trivial disease rubella is the severe effect it can have when a pregnant woman catches it - the foetus is damaged.

Female children should be positively encouraged to catch rubella.

The effect of rubella on the foetus is no argument for vaccinating infants, in fact quite the contraray since the immunity which is conferred during childhood by its widespread occurrence is lost.

Immunization is not compulsory in the US--but (just like every example of this going)--non-compliance with this norm has intimidating repercussions. There really doesn't need to be a law forcing you to vaccinate--there are social institutions with enough retaliatory options they can enact to force parents towards vaccinations much more effectively. If that doesn't work, then vaccinations can be doled out in places other than the pediatricians' office: when they are given in the schools, and parents aren't advised (or advised far too late to do anything) about these vaccination "events", then children aren't given a choice about receiving them. Usually they are herded into a line with everyone else and given a shot, one by one--with teachers standing by.

The provincial government in Ontario, where I live, tried to adopt a number of those retaliatory options regarding vaccinations a couple of years ago. One example: it announced an arbitrary date (let's say, April 15) and then declared that if your child's school did not have documentation on file which proves that your child has received all immunizations and boosters and vaccines according to proper "schedule", then your child would be automatically suspended from school until you could produce those documents for his/her records.

Needless to say, many parents were horrified about this. Many who simply didn't know any better took their children to be re-vaccinated, simply to obtain documents so that their children wouldn't be suspended. Those who objected to the practice had to once again fight the battle about refusing the vaccines--but this time they had the provincial government to deal with on the issue, and not just the school. Sure, they could take up their complaint and not vaccinate--but until the matter was settled, their child would not be allowed back into the school as a student.

It is still quite common here for children to receive vaccinations at public school-- so what happens quite often is that documentation is not kept up to date, and many children not only don't get a chance to avoid them, they end up being vaccinated twice--all without their parent's knowledge or consent. I know of at least one case (one of my colleagues' patients) where this took place, and the parents were warned ahead of time to keep the child away from vaccines because of her sensitivity. In this particular case, the child was vaccinated at school along with everyone else--then, when the records were misplaced she was vaccinated again a week later. The child had seizures and suffered brain damage from the second dose, and has since undergone homeopathic treatment to try to address the damage...but it is a tragedy resulting from truly horrific practices which allow schools and doctors to by-pass the whole issue of consent.

So, you can see: there is nothing codified in law to force you to vaccinate--but institutions such as schools do end up forcing these vaccines on children using these well-known tactics. Unless a parent is fully aware of these practices, and has the resources (time and money) to help his child avoid being subjected to them, vaccination will go on on a widespread basis, unimpeded.

As for people being "aware" (us middle-class, "thinking" children of the 60's), and actually electing governments like these--well, I'm quite certain there is not much democracy involved here. These governments may be elected by voters one, but after they set up their administrations they clearly answer to powerful lobby groups and special interests with big dollars. At the same time the provincial government I mentioned decided to force parents to vaccinate their children (the first time EVER, in this province, that parents were coerced with the threat of having their child suspended from school), they also started pushing a "free" influenza virus on people in this province. Clearly, lots of money has changed hands between a major vaccine manufacturer and the provincial administration. It is quite plain, and people were aware some "deal" went down. There was--and still is--quite a large public outcry (though it is NEVER reported in the news!)

However, it is hard to imagine any public outcry coming between prosperous and greedy politicians and a guaranteed income source, no matter how loud it gets, or how numerous its participants.

Its not really enough for parents to know that vaccines are harmful and unnecessary--they have to know that, unless they are truly vigilant, their children could be subjected to them despite their well-informed concerns and efforts.

Divina

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...and deliverance has many faces<br />but grace<br />is an aquaintance of mine

Anna,
Yes, I did know about naturally caught rubella, & am really happy that my daughter has it even if she has some discomfort. I know that the remedies will help her and that her immune system is stronger for it all.
And it vindicates my (changed) belief in the efficacy of vaccination. The more of Coulter I read (and Tinnus Smits), I feel that I cannot expose my children to the morbific agents that are in vaccines.
I remember going to the Dr in the UK as a child & having an injection for one of the infectious diseases (I know I couldn't sit down for days) & promptly got Measles, Chickenpox & Rubella one after the other!! whatever it was it certainly allowed my immune system to kickstart in a big way

Divina

My mistake, I obviously misunderstood about the position in the US. Still what you describe seems almost an abuse of human rights.

Deb

Hi Deb,

Coercion is a fact of life in North America, despite what the laws say.

No one can be taken advantage of without their permission...so as long as permission is granted (and its taken from someone using any means possible), many North Americans think its all "Okay".

There is an interesting case taking place right now in Ontario, regarding a Paramedic who has refused to submit to a Flu vaccine. He has been suspended from his work until he submits to the vaccination--though his union fully supports his stance. His argument is that the vaccine has been proven to be problematic; that in his work he does not to be vaccinated in order to prevent spreading the disease to any patients ( he spends very little time with them), therefore he ought not to be forced into vaccination (whereas docs and nurses do work in continuous contact with patients, yet they are not forced to submit to vaccination for the flu).

The case is very interesting in that its outcome will determine whether or not the state has the right to force individuals to undergo such medication. As I said earlier, the Provincial government has a huge financial stake in pushing this vaccine--and all vaccination--on the population.

As I live so close to the border, I can easily access the media in New York State--television, newspapers, magazines, etc (US citizens are not allowed similar access to the media we have here, however). Anyway, no such business deal has been set up in Buffalo, New York--so the news reporting on the issue there is an interesting contrast to what is reported here, in Ontario. NO ONE questions vaccination in the media here; but in Buffalo, there is always at least a monthly update on the dangers of vaccinations, and the pros and cons of vaccinating your children and yourself.

That contrast, in itself, is most educational.

Divina

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...and deliverance has many faces<br />but grace<br />is an aquaintance of mine

Hi all, I'm a new member , just happened on this thread . Interested in homeopathy.In particular
MMR controversy.
It seems to me that everyone on this thread is absolutely bang on , clued up .
You could all make a difference , I feel, to the outcome in the UK. Every little voice counts.

There is a high profile web site www.jabs.com which I am sure is being monitored by press and others. There is an opportunity here to make a point heard .They have a very active open forum.
A well put homeopathic explanation would , I am sure go a long way to help the stream of parents
who daily plead for answers to their dilemma. Most are tragically asking where they can get single jabs.rolleyes:
Sorry for butting in.All the best.
Jon :

Interesting point made by an MD on this mornings "Wright Stuff", a phone-in debate programme in UK.

He stated that MMR was introduced as life long immunity when first introduced, then we were told it required boosters. His argument was that single vaccines were better because three dis-eases cannot live in the body at the same time. So, if you have measles, you cannot have mumps at the same time, etc. etc.

So, he is saying that the MMR vaccine will not be effective because it tries to introduce three diseases at once.

Funny that, I'm sure that Hahnemann said exactly the same thing about 200 years ago in Chronic Diseases.

My, how times change!!! Or not!!!

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Regards,<br /><b>Simone H</b><br /><br /><i>Aude Sapere</i><br /><br />"Never be a passive listener or learner" ~ Christian Gottfried Hahnemann

jon hemmings, I tried to look at the site, but it said "under construction". I would be happy to put across the homoeopathic point of view to any interested parent, and it is something I feel strongly about.

Simone, I think you picked up something very important - while I disagree with use of even single jabs, the most severe trouble seems to come from the triples - MMR and DPT.
While more than one disease can be present in an individual at once, as you note, according to Organon para 45, diseases of a similar nature cannot be present at once, because the stronger overcomes the weaker. There is bound to be some interaction between the three diseases in MMR - Mumps and Measles having similar effects on the glands, and Measles and Rubella being similar on the skin. I think this is absolutely key, being in direct line with the rationale of Hahnemann's observations.

[ 12 February 2002, 11:23: Message edited by: Anna Bryant ]