What is the Expiry Period for the Mother Tincture once it is bottled??

Mother tincture, which preserves the crude medicinal substance with a ratio of alcohol and water, actually has no expiry period.

Homeopaths can still use the remedies prepared from tinctures made by Hahnemann himself. They continue to work very effectively.

Homeopathic remedies made from the MTs and properly stored can also be used indefinitely.

Divina

__________________
...and deliverance has many faces<br />but grace<br />is an aquaintance of mine

I will like to add medicine from the medicine chest of Hahnemann was recently used potential

__________________
Dr.P.K.Sinha

CVC family!

You asked a very good question. The question is very logical.

There are only few homeopath which are doctor too. The word doctor is used in wide spread meaning i.e a subject specialist in the field.

Some our homeopaths may be a good practitioner i.e. they can prescribe remedies according to the symptoms of the patient but sorry to say they are not doctor on the subject which they are dealing i.e subject of homeopathy

The statement is quite confusing and may not be understandable in first instance. Just take an example and you will certainly follow the opinion.

If you hand over a revolver to a child and order him to shoot that animal, which is coming towards him. The child do not required much calibre for this task. He will point towards his target and will shoot the animal. Revolver did much of the work. The bullet will may hit right on the target or may miss the target. However, there are 70 % chances that the child will certainly kill the animal. Because this shooting does not required much experience or technical informations. But if you inquired to the child. What is a revolver and how it works? He may not satisfy you. The reason is quite obvious.

In the same way, a homeopath have a revolver (of remedies) in his hand. He wants to kill the disease (animal) with his revolver (i.e remedies). He will take some necessary steps according to the instruction of homeopathy and there is 70 % chance that he will certainly kill the disease. But in the same way if you asked him what is a remedy and how it works or what is the expiry of homeopathic mother tinctures. Only few homeopaths have the right answer those who are doctor too.

You asked about the expiry date of mother tinctures. It is a very wrong concept in homeopathy that homeopathic mother tinctures have no expiry dates. Those who have this opinion, they even do not know the ABC OF HOMEOPATHY. Still they do not know why the expiry dates are not mentioned over the bottles. They are only so called homeopathic practioner and not doctor on the subject. They have only taken training how to fire or shoot with the help of revolver. They do not know what is the mechanism of revolver.

Every thing in this universe, whether living or non-living have expiry with reference to their specific fields and time. If you build a huge castle with modern building material, even though, the castle will fell down after few centuries.

In homoeopathy, mother tinctures certainly have expiry dates. But these expiry dates are vary from mother tinctures to mother tinctures based on the type of ingredient and method of preparation.

Let’s take an example of Acid Phos  and show courage to deny this opinion on logical basis. Acid Phos . is prepared in distilled water and not in alcohol. The reason is that Acid Phos is not dissolvable in alcohol. Hence Acid phos is prepared in distilled water. Now remember and write in your notebook that any medicine containing water will certainly expire after some time. This mother tincture of Acid Phos  will expire depending upon the environmental condition of surroundings and quality of distilled water used in mother tincture. Microorganisms will be born after a period of 5 to 10 years.

Let’s take an other example of calendula mother tincture. Calendula is a plant and plant is a type. Most of the plants have water in them. When you will prepare fresh Calendula mother tincture, minute amount of water will be added to Solvent i.e Alcohol. Now Calendula mother tincture bottle have Alcohol (may be with 70% strength and NOT PURE), Water and Calendula plants ingredients.

Mother Tinctures are nearly equal to herbal medicines and we all know that herbal medicines have expiry dates. The only difference is that our mother tinctures are being prepared in dispensing Alcohol i.e Ethyl Alcohol. Actually this Alcohol is causing confusion to homeopaths. The reason is that Any living organism cannot be survived in PURE ALCOHOL. Now this statement is the main source of confusion among the homeopath. Homeopathic pharmacies are taking full advantage of this statement and hence not mentioning expiry dates over homeopathic potencies. The reason is that they said there is no ingredient of any source of plant or element, except the alcohol in potencies. But this statement is not valid for mother tinctures. They are making fool to us. Recently National Council of Homeopathy (Government) in Pakistan has taken some steps to improve the standard of pharmacies in Pakistan. Now one of the renowned pharmacy of Pakistan has now marketed mother tinctures with expiry date over them. But potencies are still without expiry dates.

Let me clarify you, Alcohol is used in mother tinctures as a preservative and not as medicine. Alcohol will only interfere to living micro organisms, but no body will stop the interaction of calendula ingredients with the density present in surroundings or in environment and interaction of calendula particles with the water present in mother tincture. Although the reaction between densities of surrounding air and calendula particles are very slow but it will certainly affect the efficacy of the mother tincture. It is a common observation that fresh mother tinctures gave better and prompt results as compared to the old mother tinctures. the reason is the same, that is with the passage of time these mother tinctures will lost the strength. The expiry dates are vary from mother tincture to mother tincture.

Generally mother tinctures will lost their strength and medicinal power after ten to twenty years in case of juicy plants like calendula prepared in alcohol depending upon the density in the surroundings. While those, which will be prepared in, distilled water will expire earlier like Acid Phos .

Some allopathic pharmacies are also making syrups for cough. They are now adding alcohol for preservative purposes. Just like PULMONIS, syrup for cough. It has 40 % alcohol. The expiry date is mentioned over the sticker. Yes! it will take some more time to expire as compared to other syrups which do not have alcohol. I think the point is very much clear now, if you believe.

Some our homeopath have the habit of sleeping. They can only say “Wake me up when it is over” They do not want to think. They are acting upon the advices of old ancestors. They read from somewhere that mother tinctures have no expiry and they are now acting upon the opinion without doing experiment. I will advice to all homeopath. Do act like Hahnemann. He denied on logical basis, the statement of Cullin which he mentioned in his materia medica and after performing the experiment, he discovered homoeopathic system of medicine for us. He did not read while sleeping but read with open eyes. It is very simple that if I do not mention expiry over the mother tincture bottle then it does not mean that the bottle has no expiry. Very simple! Think with the help of scientific method and you will certainly get the result.

Now it is time to wake up if we want some progress in the field of homeopathy.

__________________
Hafeez
Forum Pk

It certainly doesn't take a doctor to find this information out. That would be faulty reasoning to 'feel security' in one's credentials. It merely takes someone thinking and 'being awake' as Mr Mas pointed out (and ever so condescendingly , I might add :razz.

I appreciate Mr Mas pointing out the obvious, though.

Some of us &lt;GASP&gt; aren't sleeping, thank you very much .


[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: LisaAnnan ]

from Devrient's translation of the 4th edition, Organon (1833 - date of
publication of the trans)) The emphases provided in the text are my own. I am citing this text as it just happens to have been sent to me from someone else who used it to discuss another matter--no typing required!...Divina


CCLXIX.

As the certain and comparative effects of medicines are never more easily
ascertained than when they are administered in a solution,' the physician
ought consequently to employ all medicinal substances in a soluble state
when their constitution does not absolutely require them to be given in the
form of powder.' All the other forms in which medicines have, till the
present time, usually been enveloped, such as pills, electuaries, &c.,
should be rejected, because their action upon the living fibre is vague and
uncertain.'

(In the 6th Organon, Hahnemann talks also about trituration--using a powdered substance to dilute via friction substances previously thought to be "insoluble". These forms of "dilution", together with succussion, open up the latent potential of the remedies to heal. In any case, the liquid and the powder used to "dilute" and preserve the remedy substance was called "indifferent" by Hahnemann--they diluted and preserved the remedy as well as allowed the remedy's potential through succussion. Anyway, Hahnemann prepared many tinctures according to his descriptions in the 4th Organon).

1 When metallic salts are dissolved in large quantities of water they are
soon decomposed; for this reason, water is not used in extenuating them for
homoeopathic purposes. But as many of them are insoluble in alcohol, they
ought first to be mixed in a hundred parts of water, and without being
decomposed they can afterwards be extenuated with as large a quantity of
alcohol as may be deemed requisite. Only acetate of lead decomposes when the
solution (however highly extenuated) is poured into alcohol, and sinks
gradually to the bottom of the vessel as carbonate of lead. All these
difficulties may be obviated in the following manner:_

In the second volume of my Treatise on Chronic Diseases I have given full
particulars of the preparation of anti-psoric medicines and likewise that of
dry substances; I have pointed out the most simple and uniform means of
obtaining all their properties, whatever they may be, in the form of liquid,
preserving their medicinal virtues, and bringing them to the decillionth*
degree of dilution for the uses of homoeopathic practice. This is also the
best method of preparing non-antipsoric medicines. Thus there is no further
necessity for metallic salts in medicines; for the acids of these latter
change the peculiar properties of the metals. The metals and their
sulphurets are soluble in alcohol by the same process; and so are all
combustible substances, petroleum, phosphorus, sulphur, vegetable, animal,
and mineral charcoal (graphite), all the resins and gum-resins, all
vegetable powders, fecula, &c. in short, all drugs, without being under the
necessity of adding any thing that changes or diminishes their medicinal
virtues. That which cannot be obtained but by chemical aid, ought to be
prepared by the physician himself, or at least he should cause it to be
prepared in his presence.
*********************************************

Seems clear from Hahnemann's writing that each solution must be prepared according to its own requirements for preservation--phosphoric acid too! You adjust the amount of alcohol needed to preserve whatever the substance is--as required. This must be the reason why all those ancient tinctures are still used to make remedies today, as Dr. Sinha correctly pointed out. Odd, but even though Dr. Sinha doesn't puff himself up with a big long list of letters and hobbies after his name, I still find him far more credible and skilled than others who do. Wonder why that is.


Michael Quinn, who owns the Hahnemann Laboratory in San Rafael, California (which is one of the most trusted pharmacies in North America), assures me that "expiration dates", as well as "instructions for use" must be posted on labels because the law requires this practice in North America. However, they can be safely ignored as the remedies will work indefinitely. The "instructions for use" on his remedies always end with the advice that the counsel of a prescribing homeopath should be heeded carefully. In other words, he's got to put them there to abide by the law--but he also clearly specifies that "what the homeopath says, goes".

Julian Winston, the very well known homeopathic historian, often writes about his experiences with the very old tinctures he catalogued and recovered from the Boericke and Tafel pharmacy. Many of these old tinctures are older than a century, and they are, according to his observation, fully potent and viable and can still be used to make remedies today.

Guess we're all, including the author I quoted above, just a bunch of kids with loaded guns. I feel I'm in good company.

Divina

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Divina ]

__________________
...and deliverance has many faces<br />but grace<br />is an aquaintance of mine

Hey who passes out PhD's in Homeopathy anyway?

Every week in one of my email boxes I get a spam letter entreating me to purchase a degree from honest, non-accredited universities!

Which just goes to show you--PhDs are easily self-administered, for a fee. One hopes those with towering insecurities won't be spending all their monies on such fruitless and unimpressive pursuits.

Divina

__________________
...and deliverance has many faces<br />but grace<br />is an aquaintance of mine

My previous mail was directed to CVC family by name. As I know the manners, how to talk on a forum? But people can observe here that members came later posted their opinion to anonymous i.e with out direction.

CVC asked a question and I responded to that question, so that CVC may not get confused with the bogus and unscientific approach. I have the right to disagree to any opinion on scientific ground or on some logical basis. So I presented to CVC, my point of view, keeping in view of the respect. Because I know Manners are like the ZERO in Arithmatics, they may not be much in themselves, but they are capable of adding a great deal to the value of every thing else. J

So If you want to disagree with someone’s opinion then don’t to forget etiquettes. You have full right to reject any opinion and present your point of view with liberty, but while presenting your case, you should not to forget, how to behave on a forum. That is more important then any thing else.

So, I would like to address to

Lisa Annan

You were very conscious this time in your remarks. You are much improved now on passing personal remarks. Slightly improve more. J Thank you.

Two months ago I decided not to pass personal comments over any member. Because a forum cannot be run smoothly, if we will indulge ourselves in personality clash. However you can pass some chatting remarks just to give humorous touch to your mail. So that this forum may not get bored.

I have the habit of reading your comments on my personality and I love to read those comments. As these remarks are just like enzymes for me. It provided me great help in my food digestion. J

Divina

Before I would like add more here. Listen Please!

Some players were standing in a Hockey ground. A player asked the coach. Tell me something about the game of hockey and also tell us some of its rules. The coach said “Football is an interesting game. A football team should have eleven player. Football can be played in a ground having such and such width and length. For playing football, a ball is necessary. Pelay was a great player of football from Brazil…. ” Although the coach has given the right answer but it was out of track. The same situation is here in your previous post quoting two email references

CVC input a very simple understandable question.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What is the expiry period for the mother tincture once it is bottle?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In response to that question you said mother tinctures have no expiry period and not given any scientific reasons or logical thoughts to prove your verdict in that post. I came and I gave my opinion that mother tinctures do have expiry dates and for this, I gave various scientific reasons and examples. Now it is up to the audience and spectators. What they decide. In your next mail you completely changed the topic and also changed the track.

You quoted references from your private email which you received in your private box. Private email quotation is not an authority to quote for references.

Let’s see according to the psychological point of view. What is actually happened because I have also done graduation in psychology subject beside one year diploma in clinical psychology.

You received two emails in your private email box on the following subjects:

1. email on Ph.D Degree (You are receiving every week)

2. email on effect of medicine and its decomposition process (You also mentioned that this email is just happened to reached you from someone else)

Now let’s see what actually happened. You rejected email no one, which you are receiving on weekly basis and accepted email no 2, which you just received.

Why you rejected email no one and accepted email no 2. There is a psychological reason, behind this attitude. Actually you had made your mind before receiving email on these topics. Hence when you received email on Ph.D Degree. You rejected instantly because you are against that opinion that a Ph.D degree should be purchased. So you rejected the email. On the other hand you readily accepted the email no 2 which was sent by someone. As you had already made your mind on that topic so you accepted the email instantly.

After reading your quoted email reference. I come to know that you are also much confused between the words crude form, medicine, dilution, potency and mother tinctures. You even don’t know the difference between the crude form, medicine and potency. Now tell us what I have to talk.

Let’s analyse completely your email quotation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> from Devrient's translation of the 4th edition, Organon (1833 - date of
publication of the trans)) The emphases provided in the text are my own. I am citing this text as it just happens to have been sent to me from someone else who used it to discuss another matter--no typing required!...Divina

CCLXIX.
As the certain and comparative effects of medicines are never more easily ascertained than when they are administered in a solution,' the physician ought consequently to employ all medicinal substances in a soluble state when their constitution does not absolutely require them to be given in the form of powder.' All the other forms in which medicines have, till the present time, usually been enveloped, such as pills, electuaries, &c., should be rejected, because their action upon the living fibre is vague and uncertain.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this para the writer is giving its opinion about the effect of medicines in solution or in powder form. Now tell me what is the link of this para with the question on expiry date of mother tinctures. Secondly you again opened another Pandora box on the effect of pills, electuaries or c etc although the statement about the effectiveness of medicine in these form is not true. This is not our topic of study here. Our topic is expiry dates of mother tincture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (In the 6th Organon, Hahnemann talks also about trituration--using a powdered substance to dilute via friction substances previously thought to be "insoluble". These forms of "dilution", together with succussion, open up the latent potential of the remedies to heal. In any case, the liquid and the powder used to "dilute" and preserve the remedy substance was called "indifferent" by Hahnemann--they diluted and preserved the remedy as well as allowed the remedy's potential through succussion. Anyway, Hahnemann prepared many tinctures according to his descriptions in the 4th Organon).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahnemann talked about the procedure of insoluble and soluble substances and adopted many methods. This is not our topic. The question is, whether these substances which were being prepared while attempting any procedure or method, may have some expiry date or not, in mother tincture form? Do take lesson from Hahnemann. He was in the habit of revising each and every word of organon. He made changes, erasures, annotation and additions according to the need. (Ref. Preface of Organon)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 When metallic salts are dissolved in large quantities of water they are soon decomposed; for this reason, water is not used in extenuating them for homoeopathic purposes. But as many of them are insoluble in alcohol, they ought first to be mixed in a hundred parts of water, and without being decomposed they can afterwards be extenuated with as large a quantity of alcohol as may be deemed requisite. Only acetate of lead decomposes when the solution (however highly extenuated) is poured into alcohol, and sinks
gradually to the bottom of the vessel as carbonate of lead. All these difficulties may be obviated in the following manner:_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you, your self confirmed my post, while giving above mentioned quotation. Suppose that you have in your hand bottle of calendula mother tincture. When you will open that bottle what you will find in the bottle.

1. Calendula plant’s ingredients (having many chemicals)
2. Air (having some densities)
3. Light (May be solar or artificial)
4. Alcohol (in some percentage)
5. Water (Mixed with alcohol)

Now what will happen with the passage of time. Decomposition process will start in the bottle. May be you know that decomposition process is of two type. One is take place with the help of the activity of micro organisms and other with the help of chemical reactions. Now alcohol in the bottle will interfere with the activity of living organism. But it can’t stop the reaction between the chemicals of calendula with the densities present in air and with water present in bottle. Also it can’t stop the optical and solar (i.e light present in the bottle or in the surroundings.) activity with calendula ingredients. In this way the whole chemistry of the ingredients will be change with the passage of time. This activity may be slow or fast in different types of mother tincture. But it is definitely there. You can’t stop them. Hence there will be a certain change with the passage of time and this mode and time of change is called expiry. You have seen this caption on medicines that “Protect from light”. Why ? I have already mentioned the reason. Yes! I will quote my previous opinion here that expiry dates are vary from mother tinctures to mother tinctures depending upon the type and method of preparation. Mother tincture will may get expire after 5 years, 10 years or more but they will definitely get expire depending upon the environment.

That is why I always emphasized that when ever you read any post, think like an experimenter like Hahnemann. Hahnemann never accepted any thing unless got completely satisfied after doing experiment on different opinions. Hahnemann was, in all essentials, a flawless experimenter. (ref. Organon sixth edition Page No 9) He was a great experimenter. He experiments, but does not know why he experiments because he paid to experiment. Hahnemann had scientific justification for his experiments. (Ref. Organon Page No 10, Second Para) Now you can see that every opinion required some scientific justification and not anonymous email references which are just arrived.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Seems clear from Hahnemann's writing that each solution must be prepared according to its own requirements for preservation--phosphoric acid too! You adjust the amount of alcohol needed to preserve whatever the substance is--as required. This must be the reason why all those ancient tinctures are still used to make remedies today, as Dr. Sinha correctly pointed out. Odd, but even though Dr. Sinha doesn't puff himself up with a big long list of letters and hobbies after his name, I still find him far more credible and skilled than others who do. Wonder why that is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You pointed out P.K Sinha’s opinion. He sent a post in the past on Filter paper / Disc experiment of culture sensitivity test of homeopathic remedies. You all appreciated to him without knowing and doing experiment on that opinion. You accepted filter paper experiment. Which worked just like allopathy. Pk sinha completely over ruled all homoepahic principles and philosophy in that post. You all were very happy on that experiment when he over ruled all organon’s rules and references and translations. You are now happy with him in this post because he is backing up you. For this reason I will appreciate to P.K Sinha that he entered into this forum with new approach in homeopathy and did not care about those rules which are great obstacle in the progress of homoeopathy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Michael Quinn, who owns the Hahnemann Laboratory in San Rafael, California (which is one of the most trusted pharmacies in North America), assures me that "expiration dates", as well as "instructions for use" must be posted on labels because the law requires this practice in North America. However, they can be safely ignored as the remedies will work indefinitely. The "instructions for use" on his remedies always end with the advice that the counsel of a prescribing homeopath should be heeded carefully. In other words, he's got to put them there to abide by the law--but he also clearly specifies that "what the homeopath says, goes".
Julian Winston, the very well known homeopathic historian, often writes about his experiences with the very old tinctures he catalogued and recovered from the Boericke and Tafel pharmacy. Many of these old tinctures are older than a century, and they are, according to his observation, fully potent and viable and can still be used to make remedies today.
Guess we're all, including the author I quoted above, just a bunch of kids with loaded guns. I feel I'm in good company. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the point of view is very much clear now. Don’t give us any bogus opinion of unknown personalities in the field of science here. Science do not required any reference. Science believed on experiments and their results.

You just simply tell us why the mother tincture have no expiry? Give reasons. Give scientific justification and not other opinions. You have no answer! If you have scientific reasons and then go a head. else …..go to sleep again.

__________________
Hafeez
Forum Pk

Mr Mas, the post that Divina made - from the email - was sent out on the lyghtforce list - I also have it. Of course, not all information sent out on the list - or even posted here is sound....but I believe that most people that participate try to do so without misinforming others.

Mother-tinctures can 'expire' but I thought it was more to do with the preparation and more importantly, the conditions in which they are kept (the conditions can help to preserve them longer or can aid in thier gradual deterioration). Having said that, I think that most tinctures that are prepared according to the rules and guidelines laid out in the Organon are known to last many many years without losing their effectiveness - as Divina pointed out regarding Hn's own remedies which are still effective today. How does one explain that?

As for your other remarks - it is you who keeps the 'personal things' going - with your condescending nature towards the rest of membership. How about just posting facts, yourself, instead of making innuendoes. Innuendoes only incite people - and are not endearing in any way, shape or form. And, innuendoes are a sneaky way to be personal.....really, others aren't as stupid as you think!

******************************************
Also, Please could you trim your 'signature'?....How about, just 'Homeopath'. Really, wading through all that everytime you post is quite tedious and also, most people don't care about them anyway....at least not in most of the world. I understand people in a certain parts of the world are impressed with degrees....but really, the majority of other cultures, I've found, tend to be unimpressed with one who likes to beat their chest and parade their 'accomplishments' about.

You did Psychology? Then perhaps you'll analyse why you feel the need to exert your self-perceived superiority over others (in the form of innuendoes, the long signature and overall sarcastic tone when refuting what others post). Said with no acrimony either. Just stating what I see.
****************************************


Right - so - the quest goes on - are the tinctures long-lived without expiry? If so, why (I think this could be explained)? Or are there some that do indeed expire whilst others do not? And if so, why? Mr Mas gave his opinion based on what he has studied and I am keen to hear others - if anyone wants to carry this discussion any further.

I suspect that looking at the tinctures in a material form only - which is what it seems Mr Mas does - is a fallacy since the remedies are diluted and potentised beyond Avgadro's number leaving no trace of one molecule of the original substance. Perhaps I'm not clear on the MTs as opposed to the higher potencies....but I gather from what I've learned thus far - that it is the conditions in which they are kept which causes deterioration.....

[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: LisaAnnan ]

__________________
"The significance of a fact is measured by the capacity of the observer."
Carroll Dunham