hallo Louise
You wote:
Right? Then you start treatment by selecting the anti-miasmatic remedy.
Read my last post in the chapter miasms.
Greetings from Irland, hans

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Hi Louise,

I would just like to say here:

" Well read & well said"


P.S. Homoeopathy is an art first & then science. (IMHO)
May be someone will correct me here, which is welcome anyway.

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Dr. Shashi Roy
"Sarve Santoo NirAamyah"<br />"Sarve Bhavantoo Sukhinaam"<br /><br />Best Regards<br /><br />Shashi Roy

Hahnemann was the first to say the the mental/emotional state is the most revealing of the disease--and crucial to understanding the disease and "what needs to be cured".
Kent reiterates this; so does Vithoulkas and all his students, and so do many, many other well known and highly successful homeopaths in the world today.

Kent was the first to put a spin of morality on the miasms...and I think that, of all his writings, is really the thing that needs to be unlearned. He was something of a religious fanatic, as a Swedenborgian; and he had a tendency to see things in a strictly Christian way. You won't get too far with this kind of outlook--the morality does impose a kind of bias on the understanding of disease...and you don't get far with bias in homeopathy. However, if you understand this about Kent, then you can see he still had some profound insights to share. It won't help anyone to throw Kent out entirely as a thinker, because he was just too influential all around.

As for the miasms, everyone has to figure out just what they are going to do with this kind of information. Me, I tend to use this information as a way of understanding the pathology I'm looking at in each patient in a homeopathic way: I know what should be taking place in "psora", what should be taking place in sycosis, and also what should be taking place in syphilis (plus, what's involved with the other miasms--tuberculosis, cancer, AIDS, etc...) If I see characteristic symptoms of these miasms in my patient, I try to figure out which miasm predominates, then consider remedies which have all these miasmatic traits in common. AFter that, it's a process of elimination: look for the symptoms which fall outside of the common miasmatic ones, and find the set which most closely resembles the patient's. That's a very simple description of an example of how to use the miasm stuff in your Differential Diagnosis among remedies...

Divina

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Thanks for writting back everyone.

The thing is that it all makes sense to me, but I'm looking for what makes MOST sense; concerned foremostly with competency and effectiveness; honest practical working homeopathy.

What we percieve as cause is crucial to how we investigate a case. It's inextricably linked (for me at the moment) with this question of which level, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual takes presedence...and lets not beat about the bush; modern homeopathy is loaded towards the mental/emotional 'cause'..ie..models & tables comprising of feelings, stages of life, terms of psycology everywhere.

My current problem is, when I started formaly studying homeopathy (& the modern methods), I assumed to find a middle road between modern and traditional. But as time goes on it appears that the two are very different..to my dismay I might add..I see a hollistic medicine with no totality in it's method!

Organon reads to me like a level, balanced landscape, with no towering mountain slapped obtrusively in the middle, such as the morality of Kent, or the psycological structures of Scholten.

Divina, Kent is a brilliant writer & thinker, but what is the impact of his morality on the big picture of homeopathy? I'm not throwing him out the window, but questioning his ideas.

In reference to Pat's aluminium sickness..I don't fully understand the difference between what you call her symptoms and her reactions. Is her body's symptoms not an equaly revealing part of her individual reaction?
Wishing you well with cure, Pat.

Sashi I don't think homeopathy is the art first then the science, simply because balance is totality; the finest art takes extreme disciplin, education & work.

Hans, having read miasms chapter here, I am unqualified to add anything further...especialy since I've only read vol. 2 of Chronic diseases (don't ask)..but thanks for bringing the disscussion on cause back to miasms, as I occasionaly overlook it in the mish-mash of information which is my study.

Glad your'e back safe Ricky.

Dave I think you've got a point in the 'the cause itself must be less significant than the process by which their defence mechinism responds to it'...(DavidK & Divina say this too)...that is, if you see the cause as aluminia, abuse..etc...but with the cause of 7/8 disease being psora,(or otherwise miasmatic) then it cannot be less significant, but equally so, surely.

Yours,
Louise.

Vithoulkas's cone shaped thing - pg. 46, 47 of Science of Homeopathy makes sooooo much sense to me. Anyone who is into homeopathy and hasn't read his book really should as it makes so many things clear!

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Hallo to all

Divina wrote:
&gt;Hahnemann was the first to say the the mental/emotional state is the most revealing of the disease--and crucial to understanding the disease and "what needs to be cured".
I am unaware, that Hahnemann wrote this. Can you tell us where exactly did you find this?
Louise wrote:
&gt;What we perceive as cause is crucial to how we investigate a case. It's inextricably linked (for me at the moment) with this question of which level, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual takes precedence...and lets not beat about the bush; modern homeopathy is loaded towards the mental/emotional 'cause'..ie..models & tables comprising of feelings, stages of life, terms of psycology everywhere.
I think, that par.3 org.+ footnote gives a clear answer.
&gt;If the physician clearly perceives what is to be cured in disease, that is to say , in every individual case of disease,-----

footnote:

His mission is NOT, however, to construct so-called systems,(Kent, Sankaran, Scholten,Schuesseler)
by interweaving empty speculations and hypotheses concerning the internal essential nature of the vital processes (psychology, religion) and mode in which disease originate in the invisible interior of the organism,(whereon so many physicians have hitherto ambitiously wasted their talents and their time—and still do so-) ;
NOR is it to attempt to give countless explanations regarding the phenomena in disease and their proximate cause (which must ever remain concealed),
Wrapped in unintelligent words and an inflated abstract mode of expression,(ESSENCES, CORES, THEMES, KINGDOMS) which should sound learned in order to astonish the ignorant—(half homeopath)
Whilst sick humanity sighs in vain for aid. (indeed, this has not changed in the last 150 years)
Of such learned reveries (to which the name of theoretic medicine (RIGHTLY SO!) is given, and for which special professorships are instituted)
we have had quite enough,
And it is now high time that all who call themselves physicians (HOMEOPATHS) should at length cease to deceive suffering mankind
with mere talk,
And begin now
Instead, for once to act, that is really to help and cure.

Italics: my own comments
Par. 204 rounds up CAUSATION in the following way:

If we deduct all chronic affections, ailments and diseases that depend on a persistent unhealthy mode of living (par.:77), as also those innumerable medicinal maladies (par.:74), caused by the irrational, persistent, harassing, and pernicious treatment of disease often only of trivial character by physicians of the old school, most the reminder of chronic disease result from the development of these three chronic miasms, internal syphilis, internal sycosis, but chiefly and in infinitely greater proportion, internal Psora.-----
Greetings from irland, Hans

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Hans,

Hahnemann talks of the mental/emotional symptoms as being important parts of the TOTALITY of the case or disease. First mention he makes of this is in the footnote to aphorism 17, where he writes that the mental state of the patient can alert you to the dynamic mistunement even before any "physical" symptoms or changes have taken place. From provings and practice over 200 years, we can see that mental/emotional symptoms will often be the clearest indicator of a disease state--but that doesn't mean one prescribes on these alone. Just to quote Rajan Sankaran here--every single piece in the puzzle--all the physical symptoms as well as the mental and emotional ones--have to fit.

However....it is important to understand that Hahnemann stresses paying attention to the totality of the disease...including the mental and emotional states, which were often overlooked or discounted by allopaths of his time.

Now, as for those physicians you revile with Hahnemann's quotes, exactly which ones in the list do not consider the totality of the case in their work? With all due respect, I would appreciate it if you would please find relevant quotes in their writings and practices to demonstrate that they hold this kind of bias towards the mental/emotional symptoms only; or, as you say, psychological or religious understanding of the philosophy, or whatever else you say they do wrongly. Have you read their books? Have you attended any of their seminars or classes?

Divina

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Theory and practice may well be 2 very different things

Since if I am affected by Aluminium all I get is physical symptoms which do not occur at any other time I am still at a loss to see the point here

My only mentals are &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;if only I did not react but I have long since ceased to be concerned by it since I know all I have to do is avoid the metal or antidote it

Of course if some unknown constitutional will rid me of the problem great but it pretty much seems that I was born sensitive just did not totally catch up with me till I was 40

Hmm...I don't know Pat, but one thing's clear; the 'cause' of your not feeling well can't be seen as exclusively aluminium, as the miasm(s) are what are underlying this sensitivity as the original cause, and prehaps (I don't know, but possibly) due to the oversight of this fact, treatment hasn't worked to date.

Otherwise..there's been a shift of the goal-posts in this debate!
It has not been said that what modern homeopathy does is focus ONLY on mental/emotional!
My concern is that modern homeopathy allows this aspect PRESEDENCE, and if this is not true, then why devise a model..for example.. with mental/emotional phenomena relating to the periodic table?
(Again, I am not saying that this isn't a brilliant piece of work...but it is not, in itself, giving equal credence to all levels of the organism.)

I for one have not enough intelligence to hold cones, life-cycles, tables & life stages..etc, in my head at any one given time, when sitting next to a person while attempting to be clear how come they are sick.

Pat I think you're right about theory & practice..

Louise.

Hallo divina
I quote her the original in order to avoid misunderstandings
(quoted from: Organon der Heilkunst, Textkritische Ausgabe der 6. Auflage)
The 2 footnotes regarding par. 17
read as follows:
Footnote 1:
So wie auch die hoechste Krankheit durch hinreichende Verstimmung des Lebensprinzips mittels der Einbildungskraft zuwege gebracht und so auf gleiche Art wieder hinweg genommen werden kann. Ein ahnungsartiger Traum, eine aberglaeubige einbildung, oder eine feierliche Schicksalsprophezeiung des, as einem gewissen Tage oder zu einer gewissen Stunde anfehlbar zu erwartenden Todes, brachte nicht selten alle Zeichen entstyehender and zunehmender Krankheit des herannahenden todes und den Tod selbst zur angedeuteten Stunde zuwege. Welches ohne gleichzeitiges Bewirken der (dem von aussen wahrnehmbaren Zustande entsprechenden) inneren Veraenderung nicht moeglich war. Daher wurde in solchen Faellen, aus gleicher Ursache, durch eine |kuenstliche Taeuschung oder Gegenueberredung nicht selten wiederum alle den Tod ankuendigenden Krankheitsmerkmale verscheucht und ploetzlich Gesundheit wieder hergestellt, welches ohne Wegnahme der Tod bereitenden, inneren und Aeuseren krankhaften Veraenderungen, mittels dieser bloss moralischen Heilmittel nicht moeglich gewesen waere.
Footnote 2:
Nur so konnte Gott, der Erhalter der Menschen, seine Weisheit und Guete bei Heilung der sie hienieden befallenden Krankheiten an den Tag legen, dass er dem Heilkuenstler offen darthat, was derselbe bei Krankheiten hinweg zu nehmen habe, um sie zu vernichten und so die Gesundheit herzustellen. Was muessten wir aber von seiner Weisheit und Guete denken, wenn er das an Krankheiten zu Heilende (wie die, ein divinatorisches einschauen an das innere Wesen der Dinge affectirende, bisherige Arzneischule vorgab) in ein mystisches Duenkel gehuellt, im Inneren verschlossen und es so dem Menschen unmoeglich gemacht haette , das uebel deutlich zu erkennen, folglich unmoeglich, es zu heilen?
You wrote:
Hahnemann talks of the mental/emotional symptoms as being important parts of the TOTALITY of the case or disease. First mention he makes of this is in the footnote to aphorism 17, where he writes that the mental state of the patient can alert you to the dynamic mistunement even before any "physical" symptoms or changes have taken place.

I could not find any of this in the two footnotes!

You wrote:
From provings and practice over 200 years, we can see that mental/emotional symptoms will often be the clearest indicator of a disease state--but that doesn't mean one prescribes on these alone.

I compared this with my findings going through the Hahnemann Journals,(DF-5) and found out, that there is a mentioning of the mental state in less than 10/100 of the prescriptions. A similar proportionality is reflected in his Materia Medica if you compare:
Arsenic:72 state of mind Symptoms compared to 1231 symptoms in total.(Chronic disease)

Coming to the next question:
Now, as for those physicians you revile with Hahnemann's quotes, exactly which ones in the list do not consider the totality of the case in their work?

Indeed they all claim to treat the totality of the case, as they see it. None of these has to my knowledge written anything in contradiction to it. But seen from the point of the Organon, the totality of the case might be a different one, just depending on which interpretation they follow , or you prefer.
I say : the unprejudiced observer (par.6) stays away from interpretations in the materia medica (par. 144), and casetaking/ caseanalysis.

You wrote:
With all due respect, I would appreciate it if you would please find relevant quotes in their writings and practices to demonstrate that they hold this kind of bias towards the mental/emotional symptoms only;

Sankaran: the Spirit of homeopathy:
Statistically in more than 9/10 of the quoted cases ‘,,mentals’’ are used in decisive nature.
Jan Scholten quotes cases in his work: Homeopathy and Minerals, where he treated patients with remedies, where the mental symptoms were synthesized, and by no means arrived by provings.
Kent in his time failed to name provers of his new remedies, and after being asked to do so, stopped publishing new provings.
Kent in his article: How to use the repertory, advices us to start with the mentals first. What he actually did in his day to day practice is still in the dark, and as soon as I know more, I will gladly pass it on.
There would be much more to say about those 4 above mentioned people—

I read what’s available of the above, met the contemporaries , not all of them, and can only speak from what I know so far---I’ll keep an open mind to whatever will come up in the future.
Greetings from Ireland, hans

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