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Old 31st May 2005, 01:05 PM
bwv11 bwv11 is offline
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kv and hans,

kv, for 6C, you would of course need 594 ml of water, not 597 (297 for the 3C + 297 for 4C, 5C, and 6C). so this is a bit of miscalculation in simple addition, just to edit for precision here.

but hans is talking, i believe, about the ratio of original substance to end-volume of diluent (water, alcohol). sooo, the amount of water used to prepare a 6C may only be 594ml, but the ratio of MT to water is still - as hans correctly stated - on the order of 1 drop in 4 Olympic class swimming-pools, or, a ratio of 1:1000000000000.

but hans also states that "Perhaps this explains why skeptics are saying that there is no active substance in remedies." i am confused by this statement, hans, because everybody (i.e., including homeopaths, that is, not just skeptics) agrees that there is no active (molecular) substance in homeopathic remedies, at least past 12C.

hans, aren't we in agreement on this point?

the method of preparation, further, does not alter the final ratios: preparing a 13C through 13 stages of serial dilution results in a final ratio of 1:100000000000000000000000000, but one gets the same ratio by taking one drop of MT and dropping it in a vat the size of 4 olympic class swimming-pools. but there are a number of interesting differences between the "final solutions" (hmmm, what an ironic turn of phrase ):

1. in the 13C, one has used only 1287 ml of water, compared to ... well, however many ml of water there are in 4 olympic class swimming pools.

2. in the swimming pool, many molecules of the MT most definitely still exist.

it reminds me of making gravy: if you dump all the flour in the broth at once, you'll get lumpy gravy, kinda like skeptical theory-making. but if you blend the flour in a little bit at a time, being sure to mix thoroughly, you get a nice, smooth sauce. my point in this frothy little paragraph, is that one can not compare the final product only on the basis of ratio ....

i would suggest, hans, that this tired old pictogram you've dredged up out of the skeptical archives does nothing to address the question, what is the mechanism of action of homeopathic remedies, and why does it make a difference that they are prepared serially, instead of in one grand gesture. the question is adequately put, imho, by referencing the well known fact that homeopathic remedies are diluted to a point exceeding avogadro's limit. if someone doesn't know what that means, they need to look it up, but waxing eloquent about swimming pools and galaxies really adds nothing to the discussion.

bach
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"The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


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